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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3790518" data-attributes="member: 2011">You got part of it, but still are missing two pieces:1) Even if each group rolled the same save in 3E, the BBEG could fail the save while the Minions made the save in 3E. That cannot happen with static defenses.If the Minions save, the BBEG saves.If the BBEG fails, the Minions fail.If the BBEG saves, the Minions may still fail.There is no case of if the BBEG fails, the Minions can save with static defenses.Out of the four possibilities, one of them no longer exists (assuming static defenses work in 4E similar to SWSE).And by Minion here, I just don't necessarily mean cannon fodder. It could be the BBEG and his major lieutenant. Granted, the lieutenant could have a better defense than the BBEG for one specific type of defense, but that does not change the issue. I'm talking better defense versus worse defense, it doesn't really matter who has them.2) Your 18 example is a rarer middle of the road roll case. Most of the time with static defenses (i.e. roll high or roll low), EVERY creature on the board saves, or every creature on the board fails.Using your example:4e:BBEG = SS 22Minions= SS 17Wizard throws fireball, rolls 16 or less, everyone saves.Wizard throws fireball, rolls 22 or more, everyone fails.These two combined are 75% of the cases.Only on 17 through 21 (25% of the time) does the BBEG save and the Minions fail.0% of the time, the BBEG fails and the Minions save.So, in 4E compared to 3.5 the percentages might be (as an example assuming you make two rolls in 3.5, one for the BBEG and one for the Minions and the chance for the BBEG saving in 3.5 was 60%, Minions 35%, same 25% delta as for 4E):Everyone saves: 4E 40%, 3E 21%Everyone fails: 4E 35%, 3E  26%BBEG saves, Minions fail: 4E 25%, 3E 39%BBEG fails, Minions save: 4E 0%, 3E 14%But, this is using one save for the BBEG in 3E and one for the Minions which some DMs do and some do not. Having two minions rolls instead of one changes the odds to:Everyone saves: 4E 40%, 3E ~7%Everyone fails: 4E 35%, 3E  ~17%BBEG saves, One Minion fails, One Minion saves: 4E 0%, 3E ~27%BBEG saves, Minions fail: 4E 25%, 3E ~25%BBEG fails, Minions save: 4E 0%, 3E ~18%BBEG fails, One Minion fails, One Minion saves: 4E 0%, 3E ~5%Things that happened quite often in 3E (e.g. 50% of the time with this example) never happen in 4E. Ever. The odds change even more if the DM rolls a different saving throw for every NPC in 3E.Things that happened more rarely in 3E (everyone saves or everyone fails) happen a lot in 4E. 24% of the time in this example jumps to 75% of the time with the same 5 difference in defenses in 4E.This changing of the odds from relatively random events to high percentage extreme events (i.e. all save or all fail and the BBEG only fails if the Minions fail) changes the entire dynamic and tactics of the game with respect to area effects.</blockquote>

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