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Message: <blockquote data-quote="der_kluge" data-source="post: 339050" data-attributes="member: 945">Read the section on multi-class characters again.  Once a skill is a class skill, it is always a class skill.Human Rog1/Sor3 vs. Brd4 With a 14 Int.(44 + 15) 69 sp vs. 49 spRog1 is 8+int (10) * 4 (+4 for human)= 44Sor3 is 2+2(int)+1 (human) * 3 = 15Brd4 is 6+2(int) * 4 (+4 for human) = 28 + 7 more sp * 3 more levels = 21 more.  28+21 = 4920 more skill points.I didn't really want this to be a Bard debate, but I think the Bard is horrible as designed, so it's kind of personal with me.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Let's continue, shall we?Bards have Sorcerer-based casting, which means that can never pick up new spells like the 2nd ed. Bard could.  They're less flexible than wizards, which doesn't make sense to me.And Bardic music sucks.  Give me one example of where you would use Countersong that doesn't include a Harpy.  Inspire Courage is the only useful song there is.And Bardic Knowledge is just as weak.  But, if you want those two abilities, just take 1 level of Bard.Human Brd1/Sor19 versus. Brd20 (14 int, and 18 cha); let's assume these scores have remained constant for the 20 levels (the character raised dex, or something else every 4 levels)Brd1/Sor19Skills: 28 + 95 = 123 skill pointsHP: 1d6+19d4 (51 hit points)Spells:Brd: 2/0Sor: 6/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/4Bardic Knowledge +1Bardic musicFamiliarBrd20Skills: 28 + 133 = 161 skill pointsHP: 20d6 (70 hit points)SpellsBrd: 4/5/5/5/5/4/4Bardic Knowledge +20Bardic musicSo, let's compare, shall we?  The Brd/Sor has fewer skill points, but still a fair number.  Has 19 less hit points, but at 20th level, the difference between 51 hit points and 70 hit points is negligible.Spells - whoa.  The Bard's spellcasting abilitiy is paltry compared to the brd/sor.  It doesn't even begin to compare.  The brd/sor has 4 more cantrips, 2 more 1st through 4th level spells, 2 more 5th and 6th, and then on top of that has 6 7th, 6 8th, and 4 9th level spells.  That's some serious firepower.Plus, the Brd/Sor has just as good ability with Bardic music since he could continue to put a point into Perform at every level, and have 23 ranks in Perform at 20th character level.  He's JUST as effective with Bardic Music as the straight Bard.The ONE and ONLY ONE reason to play a Bard past 1st level is to increase the Bardic Knowledge roll.  But, the Brd/Sor gets a roll he just adds only a +1 to his die.  The Bard adds +20.  So, the straight Bard ends up knowing a few more scattered bits of knowledge.  Whoop-de-freaking-do.I'm sorry, my friend.  The case against the bard IS as cut and dry as I make it out to be.</blockquote>

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