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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tarchon" data-source="post: 339379" data-attributes="member: 5990">I use Fascinate, Suggestion, Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness frequently.  Inspire Courage I use in maybe 95% of combats.  Countersong I agree is not so useful, but it does also work on gibbering mouthers, yeth hounds, androsphinxes (or androsphinges), red slaadi, shadow mastiffs, howlers, dragonnes, satyr pipes, krenshar shrieks, perhaps destrachans, vrocks, trumpet archons, allips, the spells sound burst, command, suggestion, shatter, shout, greater command, geas/quest, wail of the banshee, enthrall, mass suggestion, and of course other bards' fascinate/suggestion abilities and some virtuoso songs.  That's er... a few more than "one example," so you have been rebutted by your own standard.And bardic knowledge... let's see with a +20 you automatically know legends about powerful magic items and more than 1/2 the time get petty magic items.  With a +1... well, occasionally you might know something about a very famous powerful item.  Do the spells Legend Lore and Identify ring a bell?  Does it occur to you that this ability is like a powerful divination spell with no casting time and no limit per day?  But I guess in your campaigns, information doesn't matter.  Like in your games, you just kind of go and kill monsters, you don't ever have to like figure anything out?Your "take a level of bard" answer also is also empty.  Bardic knowledge and bardic music are both level dependent, BK is +1/level and BM is 1/day/level.  The difference between 1 level of bard and 4 (or 10 or 20) is pretty substantial.  Inspire Greatness also has bard level-based number of targets/use.  At 18th level a bard can cover 4 at a time with Insp Greatness, and he can do it 18 times a day.You keep saying "Once a skill is a class skill, it is always a class skill," but do you know what it means?  The fact is that if you front-load the rogue level the way you did in your original post, your rogue skill points are limited by being 1st level.  Perhaps you are also unaware that the "always a class skill" rule only applies to the skill maximum, not the skill cost (PHB p. 56)?  Your bard 1/sorc 19 can only spend his sorc skill points as class skills for sorc class skills, not for bard class skills, i.e. most of his bard skills will be basically worthless at that level.  Sure, you can buy perform as a sorc, but at 2 pts./level, it gets expensive fast.I agree, this is obviously just something personal with you.The phrase is "cut and dried", BTW, not "cut and dry." Again, you keep ignoring the idea of balance.  Does a 19th level sorcerer have more spells than a 20th level bard?  Of course!  The bard also has a 50%+ higher BAB and almost twice the Ref save, not to mention 37% more hit points.  Though since you snort at a mere 1/3+ of you hit point total, you must think then that a bard is about as good as a cleric in melee, since they have the same BAB and a bard only has 21 less hit points as 20th level (only a 22% difference).</blockquote>

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