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<blockquote data-quote="der_kluge" data-source="post: 339482" data-attributes="member: 945">Yes, bust most of the examples are instantaneous.&nbsp; Tell me how a bard's countersong is effective against the Suggestion spell unless the Bard was playing the song when the spell was cast.&nbsp; By the time the Bard figures out that there is a suggestion spell being cast, it's too late.Nonsense.&nbsp; But we're not talking about my game here, we're talking about in general.&nbsp; Having information is always great, but the bard's ability to know things doesn't set him apart from divination spells and the gather information skill.&nbsp; It's just another way to get things done.Certainly a 20th level bard is effective.&nbsp; I'd take just about any other class over it, though.&nbsp; I guess my main problem with the bard is that it's to be played in a very specific way.&nbsp; There's no room for variation.&nbsp; You either play the bard like it's written, or you suffer greatly as a result.&nbsp; The cleric, on the other hand, has tons of potential for variation.&nbsp; Fighters, wizards, and rogues are the same way.&nbsp; Even sorcerers who seem extremely limited at the onset can be vastly different depending on the spells that they choose.&nbsp; Bards have to be music-playing, enchantment-casting characters or they're nothing at all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="der_kluge, post: 339482, member: 945"] Yes, bust most of the examples are instantaneous. Tell me how a bard's countersong is effective against the Suggestion spell unless the Bard was playing the song when the spell was cast. By the time the Bard figures out that there is a suggestion spell being cast, it's too late. Nonsense. But we're not talking about my game here, we're talking about in general. Having information is always great, but the bard's ability to know things doesn't set him apart from divination spells and the gather information skill. It's just another way to get things done. Certainly a 20th level bard is effective. I'd take just about any other class over it, though. I guess my main problem with the bard is that it's to be played in a very specific way. There's no room for variation. You either play the bard like it's written, or you suffer greatly as a result. The cleric, on the other hand, has tons of potential for variation. Fighters, wizards, and rogues are the same way. Even sorcerers who seem extremely limited at the onset can be vastly different depending on the spells that they choose. Bards have to be music-playing, enchantment-casting characters or they're nothing at all. [/QUOTE]

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