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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kitcik" data-source="post: 5967781" data-attributes="member: 98256">I don't mind at all, but it's frustrating that you so easily conclude that you are right when you are so clearly and demonstrably wrong. This is why we repeatedly have said "show the build" "name the encounter." You've clearly never played with anyone who ran a competent full caster, particulalrly not one who tried to fulfill a melee role. Also, clearly you've never solo'd a high level fighter against a variety of CR appropriate challenges with a competent DM (neither have I). It's not about optimization, it's about versatility. The high level caster has the versatility to handle any CR appropriate challenge and to fulfill any party role, the fighter does not. The answer of "I have a magic item for that" is, in fact, a cop out because the full caster has the same WBL as you and so has the same amount of magic item "answers" - more, in fact, because they don't need an upfront investment in weapons and armor. In ADDITION, they have spells, and all they lose is BAB, HP and feats. So, 10 points of BAB, a bunch of HP and 6 extra feats (11 fighter bonus feats - 4 wizard bonus feats - summon familiar) vs:4 zero level spells4 1st level spells4 2nd level spells4 3rd level spells4 4th level spells4 5th level spells4 6th level spells4 7th level spells4 8th level spells4 9th level spells Just think about it. Shapechange. Wish. Gate. The list goes on and on. Or consider a melee druid wild-shaped into a dire polar bear with a tyranosaurus animal companion summoning elder elementals. Or a cleric... There's just no comparison. And I like melee characters. They are fun. But I am not so naive as to not notice that I am only surviving due to support from my casters.</blockquote>

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