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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nittanytbone" data-source="post: 4649030" data-attributes="member: 35709">Here's my current thoughts on Stealth, compiling all the relavent bits from the PHB and errata as of today.  I definitely don't have it all but I think I may have identified some of the big questions out there!STEALTH PER ERRATAquote:Stealth: At the end of a move action.Ok, so you can make a stealth check after moving or any other move action.  I don't see why you couldn't even stay in place and expend a move action to make a stealth check (although it is "inefficient" in the economy of actions).quote:✦ Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is –10.Ok, straightforward.  Except, do you have to beat all enemy's passive perception (i.e., you have to beat the best foe's check and then hide from all?)?  Or can you beat some foes but not others?The first situation is simpler but heavily favors groups with one Perception Monkey "radar."  The second situation is more complicated as you may be hidden against some foes but not others but rewards individuals with good perception.quote:✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.✦ Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Concealment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page 281).✦ Failure: You can try again at the end of another move action.Ok, I am mentally adding a new state to page 277, "Hidden."  In order to become hidden, you need total cover/total concealment or a distraction (out of combat).quote:✦ Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a newStealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.Ok, so once you are "Hidden," you can remain so if you follow the rules above.  Interestingly, you need only regular cover or concealment (not from an ally) to remain Hidden.  So you can start out behind a corner to hide, then duck out into, say a lightly obsured fog cloud or behind a hedge providing regular cover.  Everything else is pretty straightforward.So here's an example:1)  Start behind a corner (total cover).  Spend a move action, make a Stealth check to become Hidden.2)  Deft Strike out from behind the corner.  You'll need regular cover or concealment to maintain your Hidden state.3)  Make an attack as part of Deft Strike.  This removes the Hidden state.  No second stealth check is needed as Stealth checks are made at the end of actions, but the Deft Strike attack blows your cover anyways before the end of the action.quote:✦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.This is just more support for the deft strike scenario above -- additional stealth checks (if needed) are made at the end of actions.quote:✦ Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your space, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.Per the perception skill check, using Perception actively is a Standard Action, except...  Wait for it...Targeting What You Can’t See [Revision]Player’s Handbook, page 281quote:Replace the “Invisible Creature Uses Stealth” and “Make a Perception Check” paragraphs with the following:Note that this leaves "Pick a Square and Attack" and "Close or Area Attacks" untouched.  Those are straightforward, though.quote:Invisible Creatures and Stealth: If an invisible creature is hidden from you (“Stealth,” page 188), you can neither hear nor see it, and you have to guess what space it occupies. If an invisible creature is not hidden from you, you can hear it or sense some other sign of its presence and therefore know what space it occupies, although you still can’t see it.Ok, the first sentence just reiterates the definition of our "Hidden" state.  If you are not hidden, then you may be invisible, but foes know what square you're in.quote:Make a Perception Check: On your turn, you can make a Perception check as a minor action (page 186) to try to determine the location of an invisible creature that is hidden from you.If a creature is INVISIBLE (one of our states on page 277), it is only a minor action to determine what square it is in.  One can make three arguments from here.1)  A Hidden creature is invisible (and silent), by definition.  Thus, an opponent can use a minor action to try and pin down what square the creature is in.  This does not necessarily negate the Hidden state, allow attacks without a penalty, or negate the hidden creature's CA.2)  A Hidden creature is invisible by definition.  But one could argue that the minor action perception check falls under the "Enemy Activity" clause described under stealth, thus a minor action perception check blows the hidden creature's cover and it loses the Hidden state.  This raises the question -- if one monster locates a hidden creature, does it remain hidden for everyone else?3)  A Hidden creature is invisible AND silent.  Thus it does not fall under this category at all, and a minor action check can't be used.I think explanation 1 is the most plausible.  I don't want to make percpetion too potent otherwise people try to roll every round.  Plus, the defender already gets a free check in the form of their Passive Perception.  That would give the defender choices too:Minor Action Check:  Know hidden creature's square;  can attack at -5 (better tha n wasting a round in the wrong square!), move into the hidden creature's square (automatically reveals it), or use a blast/area attack.Standard Action Check:  Reveal hidden creature;  removes Hidden state, all benefits of above, no longer grant CA.Clear as mud?Ok, now throw in the rogue powers.Fleeting Ghost (U2) is easy.  No need to hash it over.quote:Chameleon Rogue Utility 6You blend into your surroundings.At-Will ? MartialImmediate Interrupt PersonalTrigger: You are hidden and lose cover or concealment against an opponentPrerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.Effect: Make a Stealth check. Until the end of your next turn, you remain hidden if a creature that has a clear line of sight to you does not beat your checkresult with its Perception check. If at the end of your turn you do not have over or concealment against a creature, that creature automatically notices you.First, its an Immediate Interrupt.  So you can only use it once per turn (although you can use it on your turn -- nothing in the Immediate action section says it has to be on someone else's turn!  See PHB 268).  The trigger is pretty straightforward -- you need at least regular cover or concealment to retain your Hidden status.With the effect, you remain hidden if you succeed at a Stealth check.  If you want to remain hidden you have to go seek out cover or concealment.Ok, so say you're hiding behind a bush or something.  An orc walks around the corner.  With your immediate interrupt, you remain hidden with a succesful check.  A second orc walks around the corner -- do you stay hidden vs. this new one?  Or because you can only make one immediate action per round, are you hosed?  Or is the Hidden status like a state (hidden vs. all at once)?quote:Shadow Stride Rogue Utility 10You silently step from shadow to shadow, slipping past your foes unseen and unheard.At-Will ? MartialMove Action PersonalPrerequisite: You must be trained in Stealth.Effect: You must be hidden to use this power. You can move your speed and must end your movement in a space where you can remain hidden. Then make a Stealth check with no penalty for moving. If the check succeeds, you remain hidden during the movement, even if you have no cover or concealment during it.Ok, this one is an at-will.  Basically it lets you move across open spaces without being seen.  So, above, in our base stealth rules, we determined that checks are made at the end of actions, but this power implies that without Shadow Stride, a character who darts into the open would at least be spotted.Also note that this lets you move without the -5 penalty up to your speed, making Fleeting Ghost somewhat obsolete.Oy vey.  Well, I'm a bit clearer, but its still a bit of a mess!  What do you all think?</blockquote>

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