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Message: <blockquote data-quote="smbakeresq" data-source="post: 7039575" data-attributes="member: 28301">Uhh that's exactly what I just said when I said this - "People who train skills believe in them, whether that belief is well founded is an awareness question."  Its a confidence issue.  As far as the rest of your comment, you cant let a PC know that he failed without him trying to discover that he failed because then he and the group will change their actions based upon a meta-game event, the PC rolling a die right in open on the table.  You cited Dunning- Kruger effect, that a person perception of their skill.  To me that means at the table if you are trying something and are not bothering to interact with the DM to see if you failed outside of asking "did I make the roll" then you wouldn't know whether you failed or not.  As a side note no DM should answer the question "Did I make the roll" with a yes or no.Just because you are trained in a skill doesn't make you an expert.  How and when are you an expert?  At +3 to that skill?  +10?  I don't know, I don't think anyone would either.  Many believe they are experts only to find out later they are not, and many experts in things fail at their expertise, they roll a 1 IRL.  The key in this is to get the players to interact and maybe use their skills to determine if they succeeded or failed, and if they failed a chance to get out it.  Really this discussion is essentially boiling down to argument over what to do when a creature or PC "cant be surprised."  While I think that putting that into the game (and into the Alert feat) is probably bad for the game, you have to roll with it work with it at the table somehow to make sure players don't feel screwed over when they do get surprised by something.  Stealth checks are the same way, players invest a lot into stealth and try to make it work, so if they plan it well and just get screwed on a check you have them a chance to get out of it if it is well played.  Likewise if player has a high score and abuses it you have to take of that situation also.  I also use passive skills for almost all the skills, where appropriate, to avoid the problem of eventually failing a roll.  As [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] describes in this thread using stealth for overland trips, if a player has a high enough stealth score he can move through a forest without being spotted for long periods of time without having to make many checks.Read more: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?526762-Stealth-Checks-How-do-you-handle-them/page6#ixzz4a5ZLlmaV" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?526762-Stealth-Checks-How-do-you-handle-them/page6#ixzz4a5ZLlmaV</a></blockquote>

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