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<blockquote data-quote="Jimlock" data-source="post: 8875964" data-attributes="member: 6674931">As you will note from my posts above, the problem is not the audible conditions but the visual ones. By underlining that you also need to be unheard in order to not be perceived, does not bring any clarity to the vagueness of the visual conditions:To attempt to hide from a creature, you must be unseen (behind something, obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight) and unheard by that creature, as well as undetected by any other special senses that it might possess.... Not to mention that the Level Up wording opens up another can of worms. IMHO the &quot;hidden&quot; pseudo-condition should rely on visual aspects only. Being unheard is another matter. Even the 5e wording does better in that respect for it makes some sort of differentiation between the two despite the fact that a single stealth check covers the both of them. Specifically it says that if you are heard &quot;you give away your position&quot; ...not that you stop being hidden ... even if in the majority of circumstances (but not all of them) they will see you if they hear you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jimlock, post: 8875964, member: 6674931"] As you will note from my posts above, the problem is not the audible conditions but the visual ones. By underlining that you also need to be unheard in order to not be perceived, does not bring any clarity to the vagueness of the visual conditions: [COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)][I]To attempt to hide from a creature, you must be unseen (behind something, obscured, invisible, or otherwise out of sight)[/I][/COLOR][I] and unheard by that creature, as well as undetected by any other special senses that it might possess.[/I] ... Not to mention that the Level Up wording opens up another can of worms. IMHO the "hidden" pseudo-condition should rely on visual aspects only. Being unheard is another matter. Even the 5e wording does better in that respect for it makes some sort of differentiation between the two despite the fact that a single stealth check covers the both of them. Specifically it says that if you are heard "you give away your position" ...not that you stop being hidden ... even if in the majority of circumstances (but not all of them) they will see you if they hear you. [/QUOTE]

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