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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5249248" data-attributes="member: 71571">I'm not insulting your point of view.  I'm insulting the dunderheads in such a party who cannot manage a system of communication and expect to slay dragons.It breaks my versimiliatude to think they cannot. This example is already on a scale outside a dungeons and dragons adventure. You mean... like... adventurer?That's my point, this sort of thing IS their job!4th edition sort of takes the assumption that player characters eventually get good at adventuring.  How is that so hard to understand?I don't need to pinpoint between 32 and 35 feet.  That's the mistake you're making.  I only need to get it approximately 30-35 feetish which is about the size of a square.  Then he can rely on his own instincts to attack with a -5 penalty (total concealment) unless he has some small part he can actually see if he tries (-2 penalty, normal concealment) and that penalty reflects the lack of precision.If I needed an exact, pinpoint location, then the universe would involve a quantum state of locations where you must only ever be in exact increments of five feet in two coordinates, and as such, being a quantum location universe of such coarse granularity, it would be easy to go 'Look he's 4 quantums that way, and three quantums to the side' because it would be impossible for him to be elsewhere.So, are squares an abstract of location, in which case communicating approximates is good enough?  Or do I need a precise location, meaning the grids are precise and it's a law of their universe and therefore they know about it?You can have it either way.  But you can't have it half way. 'Exact squares' is actually 'he's in that general area over there.'That's the POINT, isn't it?  Squares are not an exact description of location! Except if the creature is not hidden, you're giving it an advantage it does not have a right to.  It's -not hidden-.  It's location is -known- to that accurate level of degree.A creature MUST be hidden in order to have players guessing it's location.This is certainly a good houserule, but the rules are certainly not intended to convey this spirit, just beacuse you don't personally like the idea of players going 'He's about so-and-so over there' and have him point out what is in reality a cloud of probability.You're assuming there is a level of precision here that simply does not exist.The players are using approximations to indicate abstract approximations.  This is NOT a problem, unless you start thinking there's any level of precision here.Why would you think a 5 foot by 5 foot area would be a precise indicator of something that could, for example, only be half a foot thick by a foot and a half wide? (and he's darting around a bit to avoid arrows)The -idea- that it is precise at all is absolutely preposterous.The argument is that the game is designed to allow players access to information so they can make reasonable decisions, as opposed to having information hidden so they can be trapped by things they could not know about because people not trained in what they do could not have that information.... even tho we're talking about adventurers here and not high school students.The former makes players agents, and the latter makes players pawns.Which is more fun is entirely subjective.</blockquote>

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