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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5250699" data-attributes="member: 61155">I think part of what people are objecting to is that you seem to be comparing 'exact square' and 'exact location'. Even if the PCs are able to help each other figure out the exact square, there is still the penalty for total concealment, which already represents how hard it is to swing at an invisible foe.  A square in combat is a significant area - why does it feel realistic to you that someone can indicate a location within a 10-15' area, but not a 5' area? Does that area change based on how close the enemy is? How distinct the landmarks are?  The problem is, once you step into the role of making those decisions, you are having to make a lot of judgement calls on how effective the PCs might be, based on a lot of personal information. Do you start factoring in the Intelligence of the person pointing it out? The Wisdom of the person receiving the directions?  Now, I'm not saying that isn't your right as a DM. But I do think it is taking on a bit of control over the PCs capabilities, and potentially putting yourself in the position of hindering the players based not on the game rules, but on personal feelings. That's a dangerous road to go down.   QUOTE=KarinsDad;5249586]Additionally, it's not that hard to search. One can do it with movement. The Fighter moves over and into each square. The square he is denied entry into? That's the square.</blockquote>Here's another bit of the problem. Once the Fighter is next to the enemy, is it really that hard to imagine his companion - who sees the invisible guy - can call out, "Swing directly to your left!" Or lets step beyond that. Why can't the invisible guy step aside and let the fighter walk past? Isn't that just as reasonable to believe? The rules don't really allow for it - but if we're focusing more on what seems reasonable, we're again opening up a tricky can of worms. Similarly, what if no one knows where the invisible guy is? How do you handle him making an attack on the party while remaining invisible? Do you allow them to figure out where he is based on where the attack came from? Or do you say they still don't know - after all, suddenly an arrow just flew through the air, or suddenly the fighter got stabbed in the back, and it could have been from any number of squares, right? That can be just as realistic an approach - but it also makes the invisibility really frustrating to deal with.  I assume that any group that lets PCs share knowledge of invisible enemy locations does the same for NPCs. I can't imagine why one wouldn't.  And remember - attacks still take the big penalty of total concealment.  Beyond that, also remember this is only for situations where someone is able to see through the invisibility in some fashion. More often, that invisible guy can easily go to ground and avoid targeting at all.   This really hasn't been my experience. At least, playing a ranged Rogue in LFR, I regularly am able to duck out of sight. Any building has doors, dungeons often have branching hallways, and even in the outdoors there are often a few big terrain features. Definitely not in every fight, but I don't think it is 'rare' by any means.[/QUOTE]

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