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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Admiral Caine" data-source="post: 4644482" data-attributes="member: 60438"> Well I do appreciate the civil discourse! You've given me two tons of stuff to think about.. because I'm preparing to run my first 4E game for players who have not run 4E before (tomorrow, Thursday night no less). So I am a noob.  You could have gotten mad at me, but I appreciate your elaboration on what you were saying. Let's move forward...  I agree with this. In discussing this, I've presented just the bare bones situation, and every post to follow I have had to dole out a little bit more information. This is definitely an ambush on the PCs. The monsters are hiding in the woods, with minions as look-outs. The minions keep the players busy for a round and then the hidden snipers open fire. The PCs are getting jumped. It is unfair, or poor design, to do this routinely throughout a campaign for exactly the reason you've stated. The players don't often get to use the terrain to their advantage in the same way. Having said that, I think it is a rare encounter and fills the criteria of an ambush. The monsters have selected the terrain to their advantage. Again, I wouldn't do this all the time either. Let's move on.. This business about the rogue is interesting because I don't actually have a rogue in the party. However this is a one-off adventure to see if the group likes 4E as a system, so I might have a rogue next time. (EDIT: 20 minutes later.. after studying the rogue powers)  Just to be clear.. yes.. You need superior cover or total concealment if you're in combat. Out of combat you just need 'some' cover or concealment. But yeah.. I follow you so far.  Okay... Starting to make sense. Seems like they had it right the first time and then somebody later on goofed, and for whatever reason they just haven't clarified. I don't see where the catch would be to the first answer, that you wouldn't want to affirm it..  I see. Let me spell out the steps to make sure I understand. 1.) You're entitled to shift 2 squares. If you're hidden, you retain the benefits (which I agree is redundant, but an innocuous redundancy as it sort of gives you a hint as the appropriate tactic this power is intended to be used for). 2.) Make your attack. 3.) Shift 2 more squares.3A.) If you end up in a square that offers any concealment or cover, then you can make a free stealth roll. Which also seems redundant, because can't anybody make a Stealth roll at the end of a movement if they have cover and concealment? Unless that is your point!!? In which case Martial Powers is being redundant twice, or its trying to detail a feature of an exception based power. I do lean towards it being redundant twice... 4.) Then once hidden in a new spot, as a separate move action to follow they could theoretically move two more squares away from that new spot without having to make another Stealth Skill Roll. The opponent would then really have no idea where the rogue was. You would still need superior Cover and Concealment though, even if you didn't start out with it before you attacked, because by then you're definitely in combat.</blockquote> Moving on...  Out of curiosity, was it a Rogue Paragon Power, or belonging to another class? Was it a combat based power, or meant to be utilitarian in nature?  I see. Okay.................. I looked that up on the Compendium too. Yeah, that sort of makes your point right there. It has the benefit of Fleeting Ghost, but adds that if you're successful that you remain hidden through the whole process. And that's an exception based power. Okay, I think you just convinced me.  I see where you're coming from now. Monsters sort of have their cake and eat it too because the terrain almost always favors them- providing opportunity to use the Skill to its greatest potential because the Cover/Concealment is always convenient. In theory, Rogues should have parity, but in practical application they don't because they can never choose the terrain.. The terrain is always inconvenient for them.  I didn't take your reply personally.. but yeah, I see why you differed in your opinion with them now.  Gotchya. I see what you're saying. The fact that the creature is hidden and that there is -5 to hit, and that the creature can not be seen (which messes up some powers), is penalty enough. Not knowing the exact square the creature is in is really too much of an advantage for the monster. You made your case quite well. I think I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to articulate it. You've helped me understand the rules quite a bit better.[/QUOTE]

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