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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chaotix42" data-source="post: 4274269" data-attributes="member: 40530">OK, I think I have the rules for hiding all sorted out. Someone step in here if they think I've got something wrong. First, we have the rules for making "Checks without Rolls" on pg. 179 of the PHB. This states that "in a calm environment (outside an encounter), when dealing with a mundane task, you can rely on sheer ability to achieve results." It goes on to then describe Taking 10 and Passive checks. - Outside of combat or other encounters your DM usually uses the PC's passive Perception checks. Monsters sneaking up to ambush the PCs make Stealth checks vs. the PC's passive Perception checks, for example. - If a monster (or monsters) fails to beat a PC's Passive perception then they may be spotted:a) If all they have is concealment or cover to a PC they can see the monster. b) If the monster has total concealment or superior cover to a PC he instead knows the direction to the monster and has a vague idea of the distance to their square; if the passive Perception check beats the Stealth check by 10 or more the PC pinpoints the monster's square.So, a few monsters roll poorly on their Stealth checks, starting an encounter. - In combat the monsters are moving around, taking their attacks and using Stealth whenever possible. Now that we're in an encounter the PCs stop using their passive Perception checks and can begin rolling their Perception checks when an Opposed Check is called for (as per the "Opposed Checks" and "Checks without Rolls" rules on pgs. 178 and 179 of the PHB). - When a monster makes a Stealth check it can roll Stealth as part of whatever action it is trying to perform stealthily. Most monsters cannot attack and remain hidden while doing so, so often an attack will be followed by a retreat into concealment or cover, allowing a Stealth check with the appropriate modifiers. At this point all observers get a chance to spot the monster depending on whether the monster has concealment/cover or total concealment:a) If the monster only has concealment/cover to an observer it can still be seen - the opposed Perception check is rolled with no action required. Those that beat the monster's Stealth check can see it and attack it normally, with the standard penalties for attacking obscured targets. Those that do not beat the monster's Stealth check cannot see their target and must use the "Targeting What You Can't See" sidebar on pg. 281b) If the monster has total concealment to a target, you can't see the target. If you can't see the target you use the "Targeting What You Can't See" sidebar on pg. 281. At this point the opposed check is the monster's Stealth check vs. the observer's passive Perception check, despite the "Checks without Rolls" rules on pg. 179. If the passive Perception check beats the Stealth check the observer knows the direction to where the monster ended its move, and if it beats it by 10 the observer knows what square the monster ended its move in. If the observer needs to, on their turn they can roll an active Perception as a minor action to try their hand at the whole process once again. There is a bit more to it but these are the basics. The way that Stealth and Perception interact with one another is poorly explained and at times contradictory but I think I've got it right. Any objections?</blockquote>

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