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Stealth Revamp
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7026137" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>I think this is going in the right direction, and I particularly like the hidden vs. quiet distinction and the fact that Quiet doesn't require a separate action, but halves your speed.</p><p></p><p>But I wouldn't use this as written because it still has the same flaw as the PHB stealth rules: "taking the Hide action" is left totally abstract, so you'll still have the usual disbelief from people who can't believe that "taking the Hide action" when you're behind the door to an outhouse somehow allows you to use your Stealth skill to exit the outhouse without being seen or heard, and you'll still have the usual questions about what happens if you Hide inside the outhouse and someone looks inside--do they somehow fail to see you just because you "took the Hide action" and "rolled 40 on [my] Stealth check"? <em>Why</em> do they fail to see you?</p><p></p><p>I think fixing this requires more concreteness on the Hide action, and finer rules granularity for how it works. Imagine if there were several canonical examples of how Hide could work: (1) move up to half speed (quietly) to another obscured location, thus causing anyone who can't observe the path between both locations to believe you're still in the original Hide location (i.e. Hide as a half-Dash with Stealth affordance built in); (2) Hide behind a tapestry (Hide as an item interaction + Stealth affordance--requires you to have enough movement to reach the tapestry and still have a Hide action), or hide in low vegetation (also requires you to have enough movement, and also requires dropping prone), causing anyone who approaches to be unable to see you even if they can see the space they're in, but you are automatically discovered if they look behind the tapestry or in the plants where you are; (3) Hide in a crowd of fifty people (consumes your movement), which doesn't make people unable to see you but makes it difficult to <em>notice</em> you specifically (perhaps Charisma (Stealth) vs. Wisdom (Perception)) as long as you don't leave the crowd; (4) Hide by clinging to the ceiling in the dark like Batman, which functions like option #1 except that there must be a ceiling, and the DM may ask for an Athletics check to climb up there as part of your Hide action.</p><p></p><p>From this perspective, rolling a high Stealth check means you give people no <em>reason</em> to look at you in your (overhead/underfoot/behind something) hiding place. You've very quiet and almost motionless or you move only when no one is looking at you, but just because you don't supply a reason for them to look at you doesn't mean something else might not cause them to do so. (For example, someone else hiding next to you, who has a low Stealth check and so twitches or sneezes.)</p><p></p><p>I'm not 100% happy with any of these suggestions but I hope that illustrates the idea: instead of saying "I hide", we want the player to say <em>what he's doing to hide</em> ("I hide under the table") to make it easier to adjudicate consequences. Hiding under the table lets you use Stealth to hide, yes, but it also makes you prone, and lets anyone who searches under the table discover you automatically. Hiding is no longer a superpower--there's a physical mechanism required each and every time you hide, and each method of hiding comes with its own built-in failure modes no matter how absurdly high your Stealth skill is.</p><p></p><p>I think unless you fix that issue, you haven't really revamped Stealth yet.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 7026137, member: 6787650"] I think this is going in the right direction, and I particularly like the hidden vs. quiet distinction and the fact that Quiet doesn't require a separate action, but halves your speed. But I wouldn't use this as written because it still has the same flaw as the PHB stealth rules: "taking the Hide action" is left totally abstract, so you'll still have the usual disbelief from people who can't believe that "taking the Hide action" when you're behind the door to an outhouse somehow allows you to use your Stealth skill to exit the outhouse without being seen or heard, and you'll still have the usual questions about what happens if you Hide inside the outhouse and someone looks inside--do they somehow fail to see you just because you "took the Hide action" and "rolled 40 on [my] Stealth check"? [I]Why[/I] do they fail to see you? I think fixing this requires more concreteness on the Hide action, and finer rules granularity for how it works. Imagine if there were several canonical examples of how Hide could work: (1) move up to half speed (quietly) to another obscured location, thus causing anyone who can't observe the path between both locations to believe you're still in the original Hide location (i.e. Hide as a half-Dash with Stealth affordance built in); (2) Hide behind a tapestry (Hide as an item interaction + Stealth affordance--requires you to have enough movement to reach the tapestry and still have a Hide action), or hide in low vegetation (also requires you to have enough movement, and also requires dropping prone), causing anyone who approaches to be unable to see you even if they can see the space they're in, but you are automatically discovered if they look behind the tapestry or in the plants where you are; (3) Hide in a crowd of fifty people (consumes your movement), which doesn't make people unable to see you but makes it difficult to [I]notice[/I] you specifically (perhaps Charisma (Stealth) vs. Wisdom (Perception)) as long as you don't leave the crowd; (4) Hide by clinging to the ceiling in the dark like Batman, which functions like option #1 except that there must be a ceiling, and the DM may ask for an Athletics check to climb up there as part of your Hide action. From this perspective, rolling a high Stealth check means you give people no [I]reason[/I] to look at you in your (overhead/underfoot/behind something) hiding place. You've very quiet and almost motionless or you move only when no one is looking at you, but just because you don't supply a reason for them to look at you doesn't mean something else might not cause them to do so. (For example, someone else hiding next to you, who has a low Stealth check and so twitches or sneezes.) I'm not 100% happy with any of these suggestions but I hope that illustrates the idea: instead of saying "I hide", we want the player to say [I]what he's doing to hide[/I] ("I hide under the table") to make it easier to adjudicate consequences. Hiding under the table lets you use Stealth to hide, yes, but it also makes you prone, and lets anyone who searches under the table discover you automatically. Hiding is no longer a superpower--there's a physical mechanism required each and every time you hide, and each method of hiding comes with its own built-in failure modes no matter how absurdly high your Stealth skill is. I think unless you fix that issue, you haven't really revamped Stealth yet. [/QUOTE]
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