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Stealth Revamp
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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 7026463" data-attributes="member: 7006"><p>Now all that being said... we also have another big hurdle to get past, which is that the game covers three different "senses" differently in terms of what creatures have to do to in order to be considered hidden enough that the DM lets them make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. And the "game rules" written up for these three "senses" range from more complex to completely non-existent. Which is kinda clunky and makes things even more difficult to wrap your head around.</p><p></p><p>The three "senses" the game uses are VISUAL, AURAL, and EVERYTHING ELSE. And there a lot of rules the game has put in place (both narratively and mechanically) for all three, some more taxing than others.</p><p></p><p>For the visual sense, the game talks about having to become unseen and the game actually supplies mechanical "game rules" which explain how a character can do that. The character mechanically needs to get out of Line of Sight from the person who might perceive them, either by going behind solid blocking terrain or by going into terrain or environment that makes them Heavily Obscured from the perceiver (and in three cases-- the halfling behind a large creature, the wood elf in natural terrain, and the Skulker in dim light-- only needing to be Lightly Obscured.) And of course Invisibility as a mechanic is considered to be Heavily Obscuring terrain automatically. If a character does that, then visually they have completed the mechanical baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check.</p><p></p><p>For the hearing sense... the game talks about "being quiet" and "not making a lot of noise" but unfortunately doesn't include any mechanical game rules on how to accomplish that. The rules are purely narrative. "Don't shout!" "Don't stomp around!" "Don't belch or sneeze or cry!" etc. etc. But there is nothing mechanical there and thus it's really just up to the DM to make a ruling themselves as to whether the character accomplished it. Now [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] did make some good ideas for possible mechanical rules in his OP... only move half-speed or less, no spellcasting that requires a verbal component and so forth. Which I think does help. But in either case, if a character "remains quiet" (however the rules want to decide on it), then aurally they have completed the baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check.</p><p></p><p>Then finally there is the third "sense", which is "everything else" a character could do that might be perceived. Did they leave any tracks towards their hiding spot? Are they changing air currents? Do they give off an odor to be smelled? Etc. etc. etc. And how does the game consolidate all of these things together? By pretty much ignoring them. They are handwaved away the exact moment the DM asks for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. The characters are not expected to narrate or even mention they are covering their tracks, or hiding "downwind", or not bumping into tree branches. These are all just <em>assumed</em> to be happening by the character when they say they want to try and hide, and the DM <em>assumes</em> they in fact are once they ask for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. So the game assumes these things are being done, and then "proves it" by having a Dexterity (Stealth) check rolled. Even though not a single thing was said by the players or the DM.</p><p></p><p>Which means the game requires all three of these "senses" to be blocked in order to hide... but has three separate levels of mechanical and/or narrative complexity to accomplish it. And I think that really screws things up for people. Why are leaving tracks handwaved but getting out of line of sight is not? Why are we told that narratively we have to "be quiet", but we don't have to narratively position ourselves "downwind" of the perceiver? </p><p></p><p>I mean, the game could just as easily made it as simple as a player says "I want to hide"... the DM says "Okay, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check" with no absolutely requirements of sight, sound, smell, or touch... and then he rolls Perception checks against that Stealth check to figure out who might see that hidden person. Basically handwave ALL the mechanical and narrative requirements need to hide. The game just <em>assumes</em> the person got behind a big object downwind, erased their tracks, didn't move and kept quiet. But I don't know how satisfying THAT would have been for players either.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 7026463, member: 7006"] Now all that being said... we also have another big hurdle to get past, which is that the game covers three different "senses" differently in terms of what creatures have to do to in order to be considered hidden enough that the DM lets them make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. And the "game rules" written up for these three "senses" range from more complex to completely non-existent. Which is kinda clunky and makes things even more difficult to wrap your head around. The three "senses" the game uses are VISUAL, AURAL, and EVERYTHING ELSE. And there a lot of rules the game has put in place (both narratively and mechanically) for all three, some more taxing than others. For the visual sense, the game talks about having to become unseen and the game actually supplies mechanical "game rules" which explain how a character can do that. The character mechanically needs to get out of Line of Sight from the person who might perceive them, either by going behind solid blocking terrain or by going into terrain or environment that makes them Heavily Obscured from the perceiver (and in three cases-- the halfling behind a large creature, the wood elf in natural terrain, and the Skulker in dim light-- only needing to be Lightly Obscured.) And of course Invisibility as a mechanic is considered to be Heavily Obscuring terrain automatically. If a character does that, then visually they have completed the mechanical baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check. For the hearing sense... the game talks about "being quiet" and "not making a lot of noise" but unfortunately doesn't include any mechanical game rules on how to accomplish that. The rules are purely narrative. "Don't shout!" "Don't stomp around!" "Don't belch or sneeze or cry!" etc. etc. But there is nothing mechanical there and thus it's really just up to the DM to make a ruling themselves as to whether the character accomplished it. Now [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] did make some good ideas for possible mechanical rules in his OP... only move half-speed or less, no spellcasting that requires a verbal component and so forth. Which I think does help. But in either case, if a character "remains quiet" (however the rules want to decide on it), then aurally they have completed the baseline necessary to be allowed to roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Then finally there is the third "sense", which is "everything else" a character could do that might be perceived. Did they leave any tracks towards their hiding spot? Are they changing air currents? Do they give off an odor to be smelled? Etc. etc. etc. And how does the game consolidate all of these things together? By pretty much ignoring them. They are handwaved away the exact moment the DM asks for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. The characters are not expected to narrate or even mention they are covering their tracks, or hiding "downwind", or not bumping into tree branches. These are all just [I]assumed[/I] to be happening by the character when they say they want to try and hide, and the DM [I]assumes[/I] they in fact are once they ask for a Dexterity (Stealth) check. So the game assumes these things are being done, and then "proves it" by having a Dexterity (Stealth) check rolled. Even though not a single thing was said by the players or the DM. Which means the game requires all three of these "senses" to be blocked in order to hide... but has three separate levels of mechanical and/or narrative complexity to accomplish it. And I think that really screws things up for people. Why are leaving tracks handwaved but getting out of line of sight is not? Why are we told that narratively we have to "be quiet", but we don't have to narratively position ourselves "downwind" of the perceiver? I mean, the game could just as easily made it as simple as a player says "I want to hide"... the DM says "Okay, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check" with no absolutely requirements of sight, sound, smell, or touch... and then he rolls Perception checks against that Stealth check to figure out who might see that hidden person. Basically handwave ALL the mechanical and narrative requirements need to hide. The game just [I]assumes[/I] the person got behind a big object downwind, erased their tracks, didn't move and kept quiet. But I don't know how satisfying THAT would have been for players either. [/QUOTE]
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