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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 4392779" data-attributes="member: 71699">The RAW is PHB267. Since it's free, they can always spam it. Since you're the DM, you can always allow it.  Since you're a good DM, you only use it in ways designed to make the game more fun for all players <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. That particular bit of RAW does a huge amount of work, when you think about it. Nearly any piece of information players share, they share because of it. Just to be clear, the spotter doesn't grant a Perception check, he tells his buddies exactly where the enemy is: they're now noticed and in effect heard, and so far as being hidden from view goes 'He's there, in the shady corner we use as a urinal'. Recollecting of course that both Cover and Concealment are states where LOS are still available.  Hmm. If the problem is you fear not using RAW, I suspect a lot of reflection on the full implications of PHB267 might settle that. If the problem is the 'single successful Perception check', what I'm finding is that most encounters the trained Rogue handily out-hides all enemies. When she doesn't, that's because I've set up the situation to make a special challenge for her and some fun for the other party members. Why would you then sabotage that? You see what I mean? Finally, I don't think most encounters are meant to be all about stealth, but we've been told straight that it should be able to be used many times each encounter. The all or none rule sorts that right out.  I'm honestly looking forward to that. May I suggest one technique? Go ahead for a session and just use the rules as presented; do the mental trick of just accepting what you earlier thought was wrong, as right. Then see if the new place you find yourself in works or not. I've tried Stealth with both individual checks and group checks, and unless I set up a situation with special spotters, the Rogue has a field day against nearly anything of appropriate level. -vk</blockquote>

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