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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MarkB" data-source="post: 4392903" data-attributes="member: 40176">Just because you have line of sight to something doesn't mean you can see it - or else Stealth checks would be impossible in the first place.Your position is that pointing out someone causes their Stealth check to fail utterly. Mine is that it simply lets allies know which square they're in, and could reasonably be ruled to grant them a bonus to their Perception checks (active and passive). If their Perception check still fails, then they have failed to spot the hidden opponent and must take their ally's word on faith that he's in that square. And since they cannot see him, he is effectively totally concealed from them and they take a -5 penalty to ranged attacks. That's not the problem. I mention RAW because you have previously, in this thread, defended your rules as being a reasonable reflection of RAW, and I felt that you should revisit that conclusion. I've already suggested a completely RAW-friendly way in which a Perception-focused character could be a stealth-buster without resorting to your "pointing-equals-perception" rules (and whilst my initial suggestion involved a Light spell, a sunrod will work just as well), so if you want to create such an encounter, you can do so just as easily by my rules as yours. I don't see that allowing a character to hide successfully very frequently, terrain permitting, whilst the other characters all go about their own business, is making an encounter "all about stealth". Most of the opposition won't even be looking for the hidden character - they'll be getting tied up on the Defender, trying to get in some shots at the Controller, or taking cover themselves to evade the ranged Strikers. Generally, only a couple of mobility- or Perception-focused attackers will pursue the stealthy Rogue, and their game of cat-and-mouse will be merely one small aspect of the general encounter. I'll see what I can do - but currently my only prospective DMing is for a group of 4e newbies who are just starting to learn the rules, so the last thing I want to do is start moving the goalposts on them at this point. I'll discuss it with them, and see if they're happy to be part of the experiment.</blockquote>

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