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<blockquote data-quote="Noctem" data-source="post: 6795326" data-attributes="member: 6801315">Well that's when we get into specifics.&nbsp; If I can only see half your body (half cover) because of a small wall.&nbsp; Does that constitute you seeing me clearly or unclearly?&nbsp; Same for 3/4?&nbsp; I would say that any form of concealment would fall into being unclearly seen since by definition it's what concealment does.&nbsp; To explore the discussion now, if I peek my head out from behind a wall where I have total cover and make an attack with a hand crossbow against you, when you have no cover or concealment:&nbsp; Do you get bonuses from the total cover I'm using to hide?&nbsp; The rules say cover only applies to the target of an attack for what we're talking about, if you're standing in the open you have no bonuses to your defenses against my attack. So with that covered, do you clearly see me when I poke my head out and make the attack?&nbsp; It's arguable that 3/4 of my body is not visible at least.&nbsp; Because I'm hidden before I make the attack, you have no way to tell when I'm going to attack.&nbsp; You lost track of me the moment I managed to hide.&nbsp; We've all seen it before, my target might know I went around the corner but can't predict what I'm going to do.&nbsp; I don't think it can be said that the target can &quot;clearly see me&quot; the moment I show less than 3/4 of my body to attack from hidden, unpredictably.&nbsp; Especially when we're in the middle of combat.&nbsp; As much as Saelorn wants to make it work like if they have a radar, that's just not the case vs a hidden creature.&nbsp; The rules say you lost track of me, you have to &quot;guess where I am&quot;.&nbsp; Course once I make &quot;an attack&quot;, &quot;come out of hiding and approach you&quot;, &quot;make noise like knock over a vase or call out a warning&quot; I lose hidden and suddenly you know exactly where I am.&nbsp; DM fiat exists of course and a DM determines when you can and can't hide.&nbsp; But the rules do give us guidelines and those guidelines aren't even absolute by their own admission.&nbsp; Even more so post errata.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Noctem, post: 6795326, member: 6801315"] Well that's when we get into specifics. If I can only see half your body (half cover) because of a small wall. Does that constitute you seeing me clearly or unclearly? Same for 3/4? I would say that any form of concealment would fall into being unclearly seen since by definition it's what concealment does. To explore the discussion now, if I peek my head out from behind a wall where I have total cover and make an attack with a hand crossbow against you, when you have no cover or concealment: Do you get bonuses from the total cover I'm using to hide? The rules say cover only applies to the target of an attack for what we're talking about, if you're standing in the open you have no bonuses to your defenses against my attack. So with that covered, do you clearly see me when I poke my head out and make the attack? It's arguable that 3/4 of my body is not visible at least. Because I'm hidden before I make the attack, you have no way to tell when I'm going to attack. You lost track of me the moment I managed to hide. We've all seen it before, my target might know I went around the corner but can't predict what I'm going to do. I don't think it can be said that the target can "clearly see me" the moment I show less than 3/4 of my body to attack from hidden, unpredictably. Especially when we're in the middle of combat. As much as Saelorn wants to make it work like if they have a radar, that's just not the case vs a hidden creature. The rules say you lost track of me, you have to "guess where I am". Course once I make "an attack", "come out of hiding and approach you", "make noise like knock over a vase or call out a warning" I lose hidden and suddenly you know exactly where I am. DM fiat exists of course and a DM determines when you can and can't hide. But the rules do give us guidelines and those guidelines aren't even absolute by their own admission. Even more so post errata. [/QUOTE]

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