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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Paul Strack" data-source="post: 4402144" data-attributes="member: 71340">I believe I've figured out how to cut through the Stealth issues. I think the problems come from trying to shoehorn all the Stealth rules into single hidden status. I contend that there are in fact two levels of hidden status implied by the rules, with different benefits and requirements.For the sake of argument, let's call the two levels "Lesser Hidden" and "Greater Hidden".Lesser Hidden: You are hidden from view.Greater Hidden: You are hidden from view and your location is not known.Lesser HiddenBenefits: Combat Advantage against your target.Requirements: Normal cover or concealment against your target and a Stealth check that beats your target's Perception.Justification: I haven't seen anyone disagree that Stealth provides you with at least this level of benefit.In practice, you don't need to resolve this level of Stealth until immediately before you attack, because it only provides a benefit on attacks.Greater HiddenBenefits: Combat Advantage and protection from enemies by Targeting What You Can't See (TWYCS) on PH 281.Requirements: Cover and concealment against all your enemies and a Stealth check that beats all your enemies' Perceptions.Justification:1) The only advantage of TWYCS beyond the standard cover or concealment penalty comes for Pick a Square and Attack. This means if your location square is known, there is no added mechanical advantage from being hidden and you may as well treat it as not hidden.2) This means that you must have cover against and beat the Perception of all your enemies, because if any one of them knows your location square, he can reveal it to his allies at any time with a Free Action. The same applies to Spot checks. If any opponent spots you, your location is revealed and you are effectively no longer hidden.3) In practice, this greater level hidden is the only one with lasting benefits. Therefore, it is the only one you need to track. Furthermore, since you have to remain hidden from all opponents to benefit, you can treat is a simple on/off status effect.  Conclusions  You may disagree with some of the above argument. I hope, though, that if you accept a separation between "just hidden" and "hidden + unknown location", some of the debate on Stealth become simpler and cleaner.EDITED: I've removed the references to Total Concealment and movement, which are not supported by the RAW and seem to be confusing the arguments.</blockquote>

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