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<blockquote data-quote="Seeker" data-source="post: 4403308" data-attributes="member: 41724">Whether or not it's necessary to formalize two different levels of stealth, I agree that there clearly /are/ two different levels.&nbsp; In particular, the TWYCS rules, based on its modifiers, are pretty clearly talking about targetting something based on what you can hear*, because you /can not/ see it -- not because you /don't/.&nbsp; (Seriously, this is an important difference.&nbsp; Go play, for example, some Rainbow Six (Vegas 2), or sometimes even paintball in the woods.&nbsp; It's easier to tell in R6 because the tacmap can tell you where somebody is even if their camouflage or things like a grate in the way make them hard to find; but paintball, of course, is IRL.)&nbsp; Clearly, you don't need to make a Stealth check to prevent somebody from targeting you with a ranged attack if you have total cover -- but you can make a Stealth check to move behind that cover quietly enough that they can't hear you, either.&nbsp; Whether or not that means they know you're there is another question: if you're creeping along behind a curtain separating you from the guards /before/ combat, obviously not; /during/ combat, they can probably make a pretty good guess that the guy they saw duck behind the curtain is still around somewhere.The primary question for me about Stealth was always if it could grant Combat Advantage for ranged attackers in the canonical &quot;I know he's behind that pillar, but I can't quite find him&quot; case.&nbsp; It looks like WoTC intended the answer to this to be &quot;yes&quot;, and the mechanic for determining whether or not the target grants Combat Advantage is Stealth checks.*: Assuming, as the PHB does, that the primary sense of the creature being hidden from is sight, or works exactly like it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Seeker, post: 4403308, member: 41724"] Whether or not it's necessary to formalize two different levels of stealth, I agree that there clearly /are/ two different levels. In particular, the TWYCS rules, based on its modifiers, are pretty clearly talking about targetting something based on what you can hear*, because you /can not/ see it -- not because you /don't/. (Seriously, this is an important difference. Go play, for example, some Rainbow Six (Vegas 2), or sometimes even paintball in the woods. It's easier to tell in R6 because the tacmap can tell you where somebody is even if their camouflage or things like a grate in the way make them hard to find; but paintball, of course, is IRL.) Clearly, you don't need to make a Stealth check to prevent somebody from targeting you with a ranged attack if you have total cover -- but you can make a Stealth check to move behind that cover quietly enough that they can't hear you, either. Whether or not that means they know you're there is another question: if you're creeping along behind a curtain separating you from the guards /before/ combat, obviously not; /during/ combat, they can probably make a pretty good guess that the guy they saw duck behind the curtain is still around somewhere. The primary question for me about Stealth was always if it could grant Combat Advantage for ranged attackers in the canonical "I know he's behind that pillar, but I can't quite find him" case. It looks like WoTC intended the answer to this to be "yes", and the mechanic for determining whether or not the target grants Combat Advantage is Stealth checks. *: Assuming, as the PHB does, that the primary sense of the creature being hidden from is sight, or works exactly like it. [/QUOTE]

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