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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 6646497">I'm not going to engage in your existentialist argument of if the game is an illusion or not, so lets skip to the tl'dr of your post.Player agency is a term used by people who understand that the game is a give-and-take.  Players have the power to do certain things within the game world.  Make checks, interact with people and objects, make attacks, etc.  The DM establishes situations wherein the player is able to choose one or more of these actions to come to a resolution.  The DM may place certain limitations on player agency, but the DM does not hold the keys to player agency.  You can make an attempt to hide in the middle of an open, fairly populated area all you want.  The DM can't really stop you from trying, but the DM can say "hey, it's a big open room, everyone can see everyone easily."  And give you a really high DC or make you found only moments after you "hide".That's player agency.  The ability to say "I do this." as opposed to Mother May I, "DM, I would like to do X, can I do it?"Lets frame this in my Orc situation above.  Bob is the Halfling, Joe is the half-orc ally.  They're fighting a bunch of goblins, the room is simply full of goblins engaging with Bob, Joe and their friends, but otherwise empty.Bob: I use my movement to get clear of the Goblin and run behind Joe.  -this is a good example of player agency.  The Rules say you can use your movement during your turn, so he does.DM: Okay Bob, that provokes of Goblin #2 *rolls attack* he misses.Bob: Okay once I'm behind Joe I use my bonus action to hide.  *Makes stealth check* rolls 18-Again, good player agency.  The rules tell Bob what he can or cannot do with the skills he possesses.  Joe provides enough cover for Bob to attempt to hide behind.DM response 1: Okay, your stealth is higher than the passive perception of the goblins around you the don't notice you behind Joe's legs. -This is a good DM response to player agency.  The player acted within the rules, the DM reacted within the rules.  None of the goblins were actively looking for Bob, so they didn't notice him scamper off behind Joe.DM response 2: No, you cannot hide, there are too many people here.-This is a bad response from the DM and a denial of player agency.  Using neither the stats of the Goblin, nor what the rules allow Bob to do, the DM has decided that Bob cannot do something.  None of the goblins were actively searching for Bob, they were busy fighting, but their mere presence means Bob cannot take an action that the rules were expressly designed to allow him to do.-Perhaps Goblin #2 was looking for Bob, who ran off, leaving him without someone to attack, in such a case the goblin should be making a perception check to find Bob.  Bob should not simply be denied his ability to hide because Goblin #2 was within 30 feet.Player agency aside, this is exactly why the stealth rules are problematic.  Because they require non-rules-based adjudication all the time.  This adjudication leads to a reduction of player agency (which is bad) because the players cannot rely on the rules.  They must rely on the DM to tell them if they can do something.</blockquote>

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