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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6650365" data-attributes="member: 6787503">You can reach the same conclusion by using deductive reasoning, but it is absolutely unnecessary. The deductive process would go something like this:1. Creatures who move behind objects with nowhere else to go are still there.2. That creature moved behind an object with nowhere else to go.3 Therefore, that creature is still there.Humans become capable of deductive reasoning in early adolescence, so according to your reasoning we shouldn't expect a creature less intelligent than a typical eleven year old to comprehend that the creature is still behind the pillar.However, humans less than a year old are capable of understanding that objects continue to exist even when they can no longer be seen or heard. This is called object permanence, and it doesn't require the use of logic at all. The mere fact that the creature existed before it went behind the pillar leads to the belief, or the assumption, that the creature continues to exist behind the pillar, which actually doesn't follow logically. The creature could, in fact, be anywhere, or actually cease to exist at all. Yet the brain learns to make this somewhat illogical leap in infancy because, through trial and error, the child develops a sense of how objects behave. Logic, and especially deductive reasoning, come much later.Perhaps we're using different definitions of perception. Here's a description from Wikipedia that I think is quite nice: So you see that memory has everything to do with the way we understand the raw sensory information we receive from our environment. Without that understanding, there really is no perception.I understand what you're saying here about the timing of the Stealth check. The movements you're describing, however, are inextricably tied to the act of hiding. How would the character open and move through the secret door, and not be detected if she were not doing so stealthily? Those movements are the attempt at hiding that you are describing. That's when you should be making a Stealth check. What good is it to sneak quietly behind a pillar in full view of your enemies? You see, you're not hiding behind the pillar anymore. You're hiding inside the pillar, behind the secret door. Getting there is your attempt to hide.Of course I'm not going to mess with the rule of cool, so in all sincerity, if this is fun for you, have at it.</blockquote>

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