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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 4399166" data-attributes="member: 71699">Two cases express the common permutations First) open-c/c-open and Second) c/c-open-c/c Let's say we work directly from RAW. You must have c/c to make a check, and you must maintain c/c to remain unnoticed. In the first case, you can't make your check in your start square. It must wait until your first c/c square. Whatever the result, you will be automatically perceived in your end square. In the second case, you make your check in your start square. Once you reach open you will be automatically perceived, but what happens when you get back to c/c? Unlike attacking or shouting, by RAW you're not 'no longer hidden'. Rather, you haven't remained unnoticed and your enemies with some LOS to the open square automatically see you without making a Perception check. So are you still, in a way, moving stealthily despite being automatically seen and not remaining unnoticed? Now consider a third case open-open-c/c Our Rogue wants to dart into c/c and hide. Sound okay? How about if they throw in an immediate interrupt attack during that move against an Orc who OAs them in the second open square? Still okay? We can reach a tentative conclusion. You make your check when you first hit c/c, making your movement hidden. If after that you move into open, you are not 'no longer hidden', rather you are automatically perceived with no check required. If you then continue into c/c your check hasn't been discarded so you recompare your standing check with observers based on your new position. However, if you made an attack while moving, instead of being automatically perceived and not remaining unnoticed, you are no longer hidden. Your check is discarded. Even if you continue on to c/c, you'll need a new action to try again with. Now, the penalty for moving. The Shadow Stride Bugged post originates from an earlier post I made on the WotC boards. It illustrates that checks must be made as early as possible during movement (the alternative is you rule that the movement isn't hidden, just the final position). In order to facilitate that, you must base the penalty on the movement your Rogue intends to implement, ignoring the possibility that they don't manage to implement that. But won't that unfairly tempt Rogues to change their movement when they make a bad roll? What if the consequence of failing and making the planned move is certain death? Your Rogue must point out their route, not just announce their movement count, up front before rolling. As for the possiblity of intervening lightly obscured squares between a Rogue and perceivers during movement, you'll hit one more snag. An observer might be subject to the -5 relative to the square the check is made in, but might not be subject to the -5 relative to a square somewhere along the path of movement. How to rule it? By RAW, an opposed check only happens at the moment an active check prompts it, and in the case of moving into open squares RAW makes it clear that no check is required: a new comparison doesn't happen. Therefore by RAW, you only look at the current square when a Rogue makes an active check. -vk</blockquote>

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