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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8295642" data-attributes="member: 6795602">I'm not sure how you can disagree with a personal experience.I flat out reject your claims that my experiences are because I somehow managed to play the game 'wrong'.My claim wasn't that the game didn't play for you the way you described.  Only that it didn't for me.So my criticism was that what mattered most in overcoming obstacles in 4e for my group was character builds.  I'm not saying 4e wasn't tactical or that you couldn't get small advantages out of tactical play or that such play doesn't qualify as skilled play.  All I'm saying is that for me, strong tactical play in 4e rarely changed any outcomes - or said another way, it rarely actually mattered.Let's talk 5e for a moment.  Most Fighter's don't play very tactically.  Neither do most Barbarians.  Although the sentinel feat goes a long way for both of these classes.  All full casters play very tactically.  Rogues and monks and Paladins tend to get or can choose tools that allow tactical play to matter from them.  Rangers have fairly limited tactical options.In 5e when you do something tactically strong - it tends to really change the encounter.  Most of the tactically strong choices are fairly obvious at this point.  But those choices grant huge advantages.  Examples:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Kiting with a ranged rogue</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casting Hold Monster on a strong solo enemy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Using your divine smite when you crit</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Polymorphing your low hp ally into a Giant Ape</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casting healing word to pop back up an ally and still cantrip attack instead of using cure wounds.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casting spike growth in a narrow pass with your druid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casting Haste on  your mount and engaging in hit and run tactics</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Using Action Surge + Trip Attack + Precision attack to down an enemy fast</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Using Maneuvering strike to get an ally out of harms way</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rushing in and taking a dodge action with your monk, knowing that the first round of combat tends to mean there are more enemies that could attack you</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Or one of the strongest types of tactics - cast a lock down ability (preferably no save) on an enemy and then someone else cast a zone based recurring damaging effect</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Etc.</li> </ul>These kinds of things tend to really matter to outcome.  Which likewise makes the choice of when and how to use them quite a bit more obvious.  Contrasting that with 4e which tends to offer more 'tactical' play by making the impact of most abilities of fairly low value - and giving all abilities but dailies back to you after the battle (5 min short rest) really shows the difference I'm talking about in terms of how much tactical ability matters.</blockquote>

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