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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8295673" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>The trouble with the first point is the personal experiences are rooted in circumstances and circumstances have causes and 4E had a very real problem in that it absolutely demanded a rigorous and entirely different approach to encounter to design to any edition before or since, and whilst I personally feel it gave good guidance on that (subjective, ofc), it is clear to me from playing it and discussing it and reading Actual Plays and so on that perhaps the majority of DMs were not following the rigorous approach. Or certainly plenty of them.</p><p></p><p>You say this is playing "wrong" and on some level it is, but I also don't really blame them and I think it's fair to say that 4E asked too much, made too much of a leap in one edition.</p><p></p><p>But what I am saying is this had a real impact, which is that the game frequently didn't work the way it was intended. 5E has similar failing with the 6-8 encounters business (but WotC adventures tend to adhere to that a bit better). And I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that experiencing the game as "tactics not mattering" might have something to do with that common issue.</p><p></p><p>What you're describing re: 5E is very superficial tactical stuff. I'm not saying no tactical elements are present. Just that they're shallow or to put it more kindly, straightforward and accessible. In 4E you had to make some pretty big round-to-round decisions and combat tended to run a lot longer meaning decisions flowed into other decisions much more. You also had far more move-countermove-type play, with a wide variety of actions, especially as you went up levels. This wasn't all good, note - the same stuff which made it more tactical gradually bogged down combat increasingly as levels went up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8295673, member: 18"] The trouble with the first point is the personal experiences are rooted in circumstances and circumstances have causes and 4E had a very real problem in that it absolutely demanded a rigorous and entirely different approach to encounter to design to any edition before or since, and whilst I personally feel it gave good guidance on that (subjective, ofc), it is clear to me from playing it and discussing it and reading Actual Plays and so on that perhaps the majority of DMs were not following the rigorous approach. Or certainly plenty of them. You say this is playing "wrong" and on some level it is, but I also don't really blame them and I think it's fair to say that 4E asked too much, made too much of a leap in one edition. But what I am saying is this had a real impact, which is that the game frequently didn't work the way it was intended. 5E has similar failing with the 6-8 encounters business (but WotC adventures tend to adhere to that a bit better). And I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that experiencing the game as "tactics not mattering" might have something to do with that common issue. What you're describing re: 5E is very superficial tactical stuff. I'm not saying no tactical elements are present. Just that they're shallow or to put it more kindly, straightforward and accessible. In 4E you had to make some pretty big round-to-round decisions and combat tended to run a lot longer meaning decisions flowed into other decisions much more. You also had far more move-countermove-type play, with a wide variety of actions, especially as you went up levels. This wasn't all good, note - the same stuff which made it more tactical gradually bogged down combat increasingly as levels went up. [/QUOTE]
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