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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8297058" data-attributes="member: 16814">I think that where this goes wrong, and where I think [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] follows you, is that adjudication of some action, like [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s ten foot pole example, is considered "outside the system" is some way.  This utterly ignores that RPGs often do codify the mechanics of this situation, they just dump it into the fuzzy bucket of "GM decides."  This is still within the system.  Some systems, like 5e, leave this adjudication wide open for the GM, and this means that it's up to the individual GM to establish how they will do this and if there will be discernable principles in their adjudication that players can better leverage.  In these systems, the skilled part of play is very much up to the individual table.  I, and others like [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER], have spoken to just how much 5e design encourages use of GM Force, which I've noted obviates skilled play.  And this is true -- 5e does lend itself to GM Force -- but it is not required, and individual GMs can establish play principles that work to enable skilled play by avoiding GM Force.  The issue here isn't that 5e disallows skilled play, it's that 5e allows, and even encourages, use of Force, and that disallows skilled play.There's nothing special or unique about OSR play that enables or disables skilled play except that system is expected to be rigorously applied.  But, what this effectively does is limit the opportunity for Force.  It doesn't eliminate it, though, as the 10' pole example [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] provided is still up to the GM to determine outcomes.  Granted, there's an expectation of neutral adjudication, which is a principled approach and serves to limit Force, but even Gary offers advice that this is really up to the GM in a given situation, so Force can still be, and expected to be, applied.I'm also concerned that [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER], and perhaps others, are reading "skilled" in skilled play as having something to do with PC skills.  This is an incorrect reading -- it has nothing to do with PC skill ranks or ratings.  This is because skilled play can apply to many systems, and many of these don't feature skills or even similar concepts at all.Leveraging the system means leveraging all parts of the system, when they apply.  There's nothing about this that prevents you from leveraging metagame aspects into play.  And here I don't mean the D&D narrow version of "using player knowledge," although that certainly applies as well.  What I mean here is the literal meaning -- the game above and about the game rules.  CharOp is meta.  Playing your GM's tastes is meta (and can be skilled in some contexts).  To evaluate skilled play in a given game, you need to look at how well the players use all aspects of the game, including the meta, to "win," however that may be defined in that game.</blockquote>

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