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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8303860" data-attributes="member: 42582">Because Pun Pun is not built for play and is not intended for play.The first sentence is true.This is exactly the sort of evidence I mentioned. Evidence of actual play.As I posted in reply to [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER], I am not unaware of this evidence though I don't have firsthand experience of it and so prefer not to discuss it too much on ENworld due to the needless flamewars that tend to results (hence my comments on AD&D, which I do know from firsthand experience). My comment was not that such evidence does not exist; it's that Pun Pun is not that evidence.It's a long time since I've looked at Pun Pun, but my recollection is that it depends upon one particular ability that allows conferring any other ability (I just Googled up this version of Pun Pun - <a href="https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)" target="_blank">Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build) - D&D Wiki</a> - and it's the Manipulate Form ability). If that ability is deleted from the list of available abilities then Pun Pun disappears. But the issues with 3E don't disappear.4e has many of the same features you point to - long, long lists of abilities across multiple legal books and magazines; and complex PC builds. But I don't think it's generally true that fighters and monks won't keep up with spell casters in 4e. I don't think that 4e D&D places a lot of emphasis on playing the fiction in the manner of classic D&D, but to the extent that it does do so, I don't think that skilfully building a 4e PC will mean you don't have to engage the fiction. Skilful building might increase your prospects of success in a skill challenge (higher bonuses and more resources to bring to bear) but you'll still have to declare your actions in relation to the fiction presented by the GM.I can't comment on whether 5e is more like 3E or 4e.</blockquote>

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