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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8310353" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think this depends pretty heavily on the action resolution rules. I've made a post about Agon 2nd ed's rules <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/agon-2nd-edition.680667/" target="_blank">here</a> and so won't repeat it in this thread. But the short version is that it uses scene-based resolution. So this is not an issue.</p><p></p><p>(For similar reasons I've never had it be an issue in 4e D&D, or in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, or even in Prince Valiant though this last game is a bit looser in its reliance on scenes for resolution.)</p><p></p><p>Your posts also reminded me of another active thread, on <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/what-counts-as-a-detailed-enough-permissible-action-declaration.680595/" target="_blank">What counts as a detailed enough, permissible action declaration?</a> One thing that has struck me about that thread, which is a little (though not completely) orthogonal to the question it asks, is how many posters - who are posting as GMs - think it's a <em>big deal</em> for a PC to convert a hunter to vegetarianism.</p><p></p><p>Now that particular example is probably not going to come up in many RPG contexts (it gets into that thread because it happened in the most recent session I'd GMed before starting the thread). But similar sorts of conversions seem to me to be fairly common both in RPGing and in adventure fiction: last night I watched Fast & Furious 6 and Michelle Rodriguez's character - who has lost her memory - is working for the bad guys but then gets converted by Vin Diesel to work for the good guys; in my 4e D&D game the PCs more than one released defeated NPCs after extracting promises to change their evil ways; in my Prince Valiant game the PCs, after their warband defeated a Hunnish warband in battle, converted the surviving Huns to Christianity and incorporated them into their warband; in Star Wars Luke converts Darth from evil to good; etc.</p><p></p><p>I think the problem that you identify - and an <em>absence </em>of conversions - is most likely to arise from a combination of (i) task-based action resolution in which player intent for the action and the scene plays little or no role in determining what happens, and (ii) play that is focused on the player solving the GM's puzzle (a bit like the bribing of the guard discussed upthread). I think tight scene-based resolution is the most reliable antidote to it, but it's not the only one: Classic Traveller is not scene-based in its resolution (except in a few discrete sub-systems), and (if I compare it to modern games) is a bit more like AW, but in our play of it - and using the reaction roll framework found in Book 3 - we've had no issues either with guards or with persuading villains to become good and join the team; or more generally with failure seeming inevitable.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8310353, member: 42582"] I think this depends pretty heavily on the action resolution rules. I've made a post about Agon 2nd ed's rules [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/agon-2nd-edition.680667/]here[/url] and so won't repeat it in this thread. But the short version is that it uses scene-based resolution. So this is not an issue. (For similar reasons I've never had it be an issue in 4e D&D, or in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, or even in Prince Valiant though this last game is a bit looser in its reliance on scenes for resolution.) Your posts also reminded me of another active thread, on [URL="https://www.enworld.org/threads/what-counts-as-a-detailed-enough-permissible-action-declaration.680595/"]What counts as a detailed enough, permissible action declaration?[/URL] One thing that has struck me about that thread, which is a little (though not completely) orthogonal to the question it asks, is how many posters - who are posting as GMs - think it's a [I]big deal[/I] for a PC to convert a hunter to vegetarianism. Now that particular example is probably not going to come up in many RPG contexts (it gets into that thread because it happened in the most recent session I'd GMed before starting the thread). But similar sorts of conversions seem to me to be fairly common both in RPGing and in adventure fiction: last night I watched Fast & Furious 6 and Michelle Rodriguez's character - who has lost her memory - is working for the bad guys but then gets converted by Vin Diesel to work for the good guys; in my 4e D&D game the PCs more than one released defeated NPCs after extracting promises to change their evil ways; in my Prince Valiant game the PCs, after their warband defeated a Hunnish warband in battle, converted the surviving Huns to Christianity and incorporated them into their warband; in Star Wars Luke converts Darth from evil to good; etc. I think the problem that you identify - and an [I]absence [/I]of conversions - is most likely to arise from a combination of (i) task-based action resolution in which player intent for the action and the scene plays little or no role in determining what happens, and (ii) play that is focused on the player solving the GM's puzzle (a bit like the bribing of the guard discussed upthread). I think tight scene-based resolution is the most reliable antidote to it, but it's not the only one: Classic Traveller is not scene-based in its resolution (except in a few discrete sub-systems), and (if I compare it to modern games) is a bit more like AW, but in our play of it - and using the reaction roll framework found in Book 3 - we've had no issues either with guards or with persuading villains to become good and join the team; or more generally with failure seeming inevitable. [/QUOTE]
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