NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8314546" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Yeah, we definitely don't agree here.4e Skill Challenges can create fallout not related to the stakes of the conflict, its just typically very 4e D&D related fallout.  For instance, all the below have downstream effects unrelated to the stakes of any given conflict:* You lose a Healing Surge or 2/3.* You spend 1/2 or 3/10 of your Coin to resolve a check(s).* You spend requisite Coin to resolve a Ritual.* You spend a Daily (or 2) to resolve a Skill Challenge.* You're afflicted with a longterm Disease/Condition.* The Ritual you're using to resolve a Skill Challenge complication is its own nested Skill Challenge with adjacent fallout.* A complication in a Skill Challenge becomes its own nested Skill Challenge or a combat.  In the course of that, you marshal (and lose) a lot of resources to resolve it.* A complication in a Skill Challenge is a threatening obstacle that you would rather tame/redeem/help/recruit (a Bear, an animated sword with a guilty conscious, a man-at-arms who has lost his virtue/way/temper, a raging elemental that was summoned but then killed its master and is now loose...these were all Companion characters in my games that were gained via nested Skill Challenges as outgrowths of other Skill Challenges where the players decided to tame/redeem/help/recruit rather than simply resolve and bypass as obstacles) and therefore a nested Skill Challenge goes underway to determine if they become Companion Characters.I'm sure there are more, but if I compare this to Dogs, there is a lot of overlap on the Venn Diagram of fallout.  There are areas that are absolutely missing that are specific to Dogs (eg the emotional consequences and the ablation of self that occurs due to decisions and resolution in Dogs), but there is overlap.  I mean, even there you can sub Disease/Condition for an emotional one and create a track for resolving it (eg "despair).So that (the emotional consequences + ablation of self in Dogs...Long-term Fallout is the difference here...4e doesn't have an equivalent of downtiering existing Reltionship/Trait die or adding a perma d4 or erasing a belonging or damaging your coat and downtiering it) + the fact that Dogs conflict resolution is just meatier (cognitively and emotionally), more toothy (the system interactions are more potent and the stakes of the interactions are higher) + Dogs non-lethal combat conflict resolution is just plain more fun (at least in my opinion).But I find the "these things are fundamentally different so they should be separated near the top of the taxonomical hierarchy" to not be persuasive.  Yes, separate them as you move down the taxonomical hierarchy as they speciate into different things for sure...but top 1/3 of it?  I don't see it.</blockquote>

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