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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8322024" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Part of my point is that there is no particular correlation between <em>is a mechanic consistent with Actor Stance</em> and <em>is a mechanic in respect of which every outcome that might flow from its use is an outcome that, in the fiction, flows primarily from the causal powers of the character</em>.</p><p></p><p>As you say, classic D&D is replete with mechanics in the second of the two classes mentioned in the previous paragraph (at least if we bracket the interpretation of hp, saving throws etc as "supernatural forces"). But classic D&D is played overwhelmingly in Author Stance (or Pawn Stance), not in Actor Stance. The player makes decisions based on the metagame imperative of <em>beating the dungeon</em>, and character motivations, if they come up at all, are retrofitted in the moment of play to support this. Perhaps sometimes alignment serves a purpose here too.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, Wises and Circles in Burning Wheel are not mechanics in the second of the two classes, because the main outcome from <em>remembering X </em>is <em>the truth of X</em>, and the main outcome from <em>fulfilling one's hope to meet Y</em> is <em>the presence, here-and-now, of Y</em> - and neither <em>the truth of X</em> nor <em>the presence, here-and-now, of Y</em> flows primarily from the causal powers of the character.</p><p></p><p>Yet Wises and Circles are quite consistent with Actor Stance, because it does not require thinking beyond the motivations and circumstances of one's character to envisage him/her <em>remembering something</em> or <em>hoping to meet someone</em>.</p><p></p><p>To link this to [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s point upthread about the "feel" of different mechanics: in OGL Conan there is an option to spend a Fate point to have a convenient chance meeting with a NPC. This is intended to emulate (eg) Zenobia helping Conan to escape in The Hour of the Dragon. I think that Circles is a better mechanic than this OGL Conan one, from the point of view of character inhabitation, because in the OGL Conan case what I do as a player is <em>decide </em>that a particular NPC will turn up, which clearly is not something my PC can do. Whereas in the case of Circles what I do is <em>hope</em> that particular NPC will turn up, which clearly <em>is</em> something my PC and do, and then the dice settle the question of whether or not the hope is satisfied.</p><p></p><p>The expenditure of a Plot Point during an Action Scene to create a Resource in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic is intermediate between the two systems - it's a decision the player makes, but is only permitted when the GM rolls a 1 (an Opportunity, in the jargon of the system). I think this puts less pressure on Actor Stance than the OGL Conan approach, but is not as seamless as Circles.</p><p></p><p>I think it's a huge strength of Burning Wheel to have (i) recognised that the purpose of dice in action declaration is to settle contentious matters in the fiction - where the contention arises from the possible gap between what the character wants and what actually happens, and (ii) to have generalised this beyond circumstances where the character is the main <em>causal </em>factor to cases like remembering things, and hoping to meet people. Just as sometimes your aim is not reliable, so sometimes neither is your memory; and just as sometimes your hopes for (eg) scaling the wall are dashed, so likewise sometimes are your hopes for finding a secret way out, or having someone turn up ready to help you out!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8322024, member: 42582"] Part of my point is that there is no particular correlation between [I]is a mechanic consistent with Actor Stance[/I] and [I]is a mechanic in respect of which every outcome that might flow from its use is an outcome that, in the fiction, flows primarily from the causal powers of the character[/I]. As you say, classic D&D is replete with mechanics in the second of the two classes mentioned in the previous paragraph (at least if we bracket the interpretation of hp, saving throws etc as "supernatural forces"). But classic D&D is played overwhelmingly in Author Stance (or Pawn Stance), not in Actor Stance. The player makes decisions based on the metagame imperative of [I]beating the dungeon[/I], and character motivations, if they come up at all, are retrofitted in the moment of play to support this. Perhaps sometimes alignment serves a purpose here too. Conversely, Wises and Circles in Burning Wheel are not mechanics in the second of the two classes, because the main outcome from [I]remembering X[I] [/I][/I]is [I]the truth of X[/I], and the main outcome from [I]fulfilling one's hope to meet Y[/I] is [I]the presence, here-and-now, of Y[/I] - and neither [I]the truth of X[/I] nor [I]the presence, here-and-now, of Y[/I] flows primarily from the causal powers of the character. Yet Wises and Circles are quite consistent with Actor Stance, because it does not require thinking beyond the motivations and circumstances of one's character to envisage him/her [I]remembering something[/I] or [I]hoping to meet someone[/I]. To link this to [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s point upthread about the "feel" of different mechanics: in OGL Conan there is an option to spend a Fate point to have a convenient chance meeting with a NPC. This is intended to emulate (eg) Zenobia helping Conan to escape in The Hour of the Dragon. I think that Circles is a better mechanic than this OGL Conan one, from the point of view of character inhabitation, because in the OGL Conan case what I do as a player is [I]decide [/I]that a particular NPC will turn up, which clearly is not something my PC can do. Whereas in the case of Circles what I do is [I]hope[/I] that particular NPC will turn up, which clearly [I]is[/I] something my PC and do, and then the dice settle the question of whether or not the hope is satisfied. The expenditure of a Plot Point during an Action Scene to create a Resource in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic is intermediate between the two systems - it's a decision the player makes, but is only permitted when the GM rolls a 1 (an Opportunity, in the jargon of the system). I think this puts less pressure on Actor Stance than the OGL Conan approach, but is not as seamless as Circles. I think it's a huge strength of Burning Wheel to have (i) recognised that the purpose of dice in action declaration is to settle contentious matters in the fiction - where the contention arises from the possible gap between what the character wants and what actually happens, and (ii) to have generalised this beyond circumstances where the character is the main [I]causal [/I]factor to cases like remembering things, and hoping to meet people. Just as sometimes your aim is not reliable, so sometimes neither is your memory; and just as sometimes your hopes for (eg) scaling the wall are dashed, so likewise sometimes are your hopes for finding a secret way out, or having someone turn up ready to help you out! [/QUOTE]
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