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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SmokeyCriminal" data-source="post: 7224570" data-attributes="member: 6876146">I think  Force Over Finesse is too cluttered and weird. Keep it simple, You want this rogue to not be limited to finesse then just say "sneak attack doesn't require finesse." I don't agree with the second bullet point, the whole versatile or two-handed thing, it feels like it narrows your options right when you expanded them and favours specific builds over others. It feels like your saying "If your not using a Greatclub/sword/axe then you can't have this benefit." what about dual wielding hand axes? which Id argue are more "iconic" Brute rogues then Greatsword rogues. The Swashbuckler already has the one-on-one thing, and I don't think you need it anyway. Or at the very least get rid of the weapon restriction. Maybe if your looking for a new sneak attack mechanic don't incentivize one-on-one situations, Incentivize Brawl situations. Like, let sneak attack also trigger  when a Foe or Ally is within 5 feet of the creature, or maybe when more then one foe is engaged in melee with you you trigger sneak attack without advantage or an ally, so the Brute Rogue does better when hes out numbered or alone with his back against the wall kinda thing, and specifically throws himself at crowds of baddies. IDK, just remember that mechanics like sneak attack are incentive rewards. What situations do you want this class to specifically look for, get into, and create in fights.The bullet point about only Strength thing  looks like its there just so you can't use range weapons, which I don't entirely agree with, because I think a Heavy Cross Bow Sneak Attacking Rogue is very cool and Thug/Brute but if you want to incentivize Melee then thats fine. But the double range to thrown weapons seems like its just there to make up for taking away Bows, you don't need it. It muddies the concept, this isn't a knife/axe thrower specialist rogue, you should get rid of it. It sucks that this rogue will have <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> range but you have Bonus Action Dash so your not SOL like the Pally or Fighter.Professional Vandal is really cool i really like how sneak attack applies. The wording is a little funny, instead of the 5 feet things, just say something like when you hit an object that isn't carried or worn with a melee weapon, instead. And I get what your trying to do with the expanded crit range but it feels niche. I think there is a siege damage mechanic where it does double damage to objects and structures, I think you should use that and say "you do double damage to objects." We want the Brute to be able to, and want to, break stuff, so lets let him, and just get rid of the crit thing.Vigorous Body is the only thing I know for a fact, 100%, you can't keep. In two more levels you get Wisdom saving throws that means the Brute would have 4 out of the 6 saves. Plus there is a Feat that gives you a  Proficiency save of your choice, and the rogue has one extra ASI then everyone else, which means you can EASILY have proficiency for 5 out of the 6 saves. I get what your trying to accomplish with it, but this is the wrong way to do it.Masterpiece in Violence feels...idk. I like the the concept of the dice bump, but my first thought was also, "who has more then a pair of D8s at most?" I know it sounds petty but 9 D8! and EXTRA ATTACK doesn't suck, and the damage itself isn't really the issue, its actually negligible for a rogue. when I see it I don't think "oohh an extra 10 point of damage" I think "oooh an extra chance for sneak attack." Do you know what I mean? Plus this should be the culmination of specifically the Brute rogue it should be more unique then just more damage in and of itself.Personally the way I would rearrange your build, kinda off the top of my head, is;3rd lvlJust get rid of the Finesse restrictionMartial Training and medium armourProfessional Vandal (with double damage instead of expanded crit. Plus I want the player to consider busting down the door rather then picking the lock as soon as possible)add Cunning Action Escape from Grapples ( I just thought of it and it feels really brawler and rouge-ish)add No disadvantage from medium armour stealth (just cuz I think a Brute should still be a little sneaky-ish)no double range throw weapons(no range weapon restrictions but either is fine, it just depends how much you want to emphasize melee)9th lvlCunning Action Shove (for the advantage and slight damage bust and to make him fight like a cheap shot brawler)13th lvlAdvantage on Strength checks and saves (It steps on the toes of the Barb but he had it since first level and is proficient in Strength so hes still better. But I still think it does what you want without messing anything up)17th lvl????Extra Attack?Advantage on attacks when in melee with more then one creature?(IDK the capstone needs more oomph it needs a cool shtick)Plus there is also the dice bump, I thought maybe a bump from D6 to D8 at 9th and then another at 13th or 17th? idk just the idea of D10 sneak attack felt really cool. A dice bump is essential 1 extra point per dice, and no one complains about the rogues doing too much damage at mid level. And I feel like you can do something with Intimidation. Also maybe it needs more ribbons?</blockquote>

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