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Strength-based Rogue archetype, feedback much appreciated!
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<blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 7224605" data-attributes="member: 6786252"><p>So, lets put aside the accusations of min-maxing here. Classes are more than just sets of rules. They're designed to look at archetypes and jobs in a roleplay perspective. Wizards are scholars above all else. They're students who get their powers from studying and books. So, while they can (and often do) have some investment in social ability for various reasons, they're still meant to study. Why would a Barbarian focus on wisdom? That is actually a very good question - barbarians, naming aside, is someone who specializes in the physical. Asking about wisdom could reveal some pretty cool sides to the story of a character. That said, asking why the person is focusing on Wisdom and ignoring their physical and choosing the Barbarian lifestyle - would not a ranger or druid or even a nature-based monk fit the character better if we focus on observation? What part of this character is barbarian-like?</p><p></p><p>Now, not saying that Strength-Rogues can't be a thing. But, from a story perspective, asking "why" is a very good one to ask. What kind of story is this meant to tell? What archetype or style we looking to play? What's going on here? What kind of person is this? Why can't a rogue buff out? A better question is - why would someone focused on buffing out study to move like a nimble acrobat? And, yes, that assumption is built into the rogue's Cunning Actions and other evasive maneuvers. Even if you dont' call it acrobatics or tumbling, nimble behavior is definitely baked into the class. Archetypes should still feel like part of the base class in some way.</p><p></p><p> Nope.</p><p></p><p>Joking aside, there was the brutal Rogue in 4e, who did the whole Strength route. That was kind of interesting, because they dealt with stunning and intimidating people through their attacks, which was rather an interesting feature that was fun to play. Granted, that was also doable because of how 4e worked, but the core idea is still solid, and might be worth mining for ideas.</p><p></p><p> Okay, now to talk about actual mechanics. I don't like the removal of the advantage. On the one hand, you can someone within 5' to get off sneak attack, but it sounds like you want to get rid of that. You're effectively eliminating the core fighting style of the Rogue here, and feeling like just another Fighter-type who smacks things hard with larger weapons - just using a single attack instead of multiple. Rogues should always be angling for advantage in some way.</p><p></p><p> While medium armor is a necessity here, why martial weapons? Rogues aren't meant to be front line warriors, they're not meant to be highly trained in martial matters. Why are martial weapons a thing here? </p><p></p><p> What does this do? What purpose does it serve? Why are we breaking objects? Thief gets to climb faster, which helps with second story work, with exploration in dungeons, with evasion in combat. Arcane Trickster gets to put disadvantage on people to resist spells (this is huge!) Swashbucklers are literally charming. Assassins get disguise mastery - not exactly a huge boost for most games, but if you're playing an actual assassin slipping into places to kill someone, its a huge benefit.</p><p></p><p>What purpose does smashing objects have for the character? </p><p></p><p> Okay, sure. Despite popular views, Strength saving throws are actually pretty common when not fighting dragons.</p><p></p><p><strong><span style="color: #000000"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">A Masterpiece in Violence</span></span></strong></p><p> Attacking twice is called Extra Attack. Or using your bonus action or reaction. It should always be tied to something like that. And adding an extra +10dpr from the d6 to d8 bump is rather notable, though I admit to find just pure dpr boost to be a bit underwhelming here. Extra Attack, on its own, is big, because that's another chance to hit with your sneak attack.</p><p></p><p> Also, with your restriction removal on sneak attack, you can already use your sneak attack bonus on unarmed attacks, so that's just redundant.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mephista, post: 7224605, member: 6786252"] So, lets put aside the accusations of min-maxing here. Classes are more than just sets of rules. They're designed to look at archetypes and jobs in a roleplay perspective. Wizards are scholars above all else. They're students who get their powers from studying and books. So, while they can (and often do) have some investment in social ability for various reasons, they're still meant to study. Why would a Barbarian focus on wisdom? That is actually a very good question - barbarians, naming aside, is someone who specializes in the physical. Asking about wisdom could reveal some pretty cool sides to the story of a character. That said, asking why the person is focusing on Wisdom and ignoring their physical and choosing the Barbarian lifestyle - would not a ranger or druid or even a nature-based monk fit the character better if we focus on observation? What part of this character is barbarian-like? Now, not saying that Strength-Rogues can't be a thing. But, from a story perspective, asking "why" is a very good one to ask. What kind of story is this meant to tell? What archetype or style we looking to play? What's going on here? What kind of person is this? Why can't a rogue buff out? A better question is - why would someone focused on buffing out study to move like a nimble acrobat? And, yes, that assumption is built into the rogue's Cunning Actions and other evasive maneuvers. Even if you dont' call it acrobatics or tumbling, nimble behavior is definitely baked into the class. Archetypes should still feel like part of the base class in some way. Nope. Joking aside, there was the brutal Rogue in 4e, who did the whole Strength route. That was kind of interesting, because they dealt with stunning and intimidating people through their attacks, which was rather an interesting feature that was fun to play. Granted, that was also doable because of how 4e worked, but the core idea is still solid, and might be worth mining for ideas. Okay, now to talk about actual mechanics. I don't like the removal of the advantage. On the one hand, you can someone within 5' to get off sneak attack, but it sounds like you want to get rid of that. You're effectively eliminating the core fighting style of the Rogue here, and feeling like just another Fighter-type who smacks things hard with larger weapons - just using a single attack instead of multiple. Rogues should always be angling for advantage in some way. While medium armor is a necessity here, why martial weapons? Rogues aren't meant to be front line warriors, they're not meant to be highly trained in martial matters. Why are martial weapons a thing here? What does this do? What purpose does it serve? Why are we breaking objects? Thief gets to climb faster, which helps with second story work, with exploration in dungeons, with evasion in combat. Arcane Trickster gets to put disadvantage on people to resist spells (this is huge!) Swashbucklers are literally charming. Assassins get disguise mastery - not exactly a huge boost for most games, but if you're playing an actual assassin slipping into places to kill someone, its a huge benefit. What purpose does smashing objects have for the character? Okay, sure. Despite popular views, Strength saving throws are actually pretty common when not fighting dragons. [B][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]A Masterpiece in Violence[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] Attacking twice is called Extra Attack. Or using your bonus action or reaction. It should always be tied to something like that. And adding an extra +10dpr from the d6 to d8 bump is rather notable, though I admit to find just pure dpr boost to be a bit underwhelming here. Extra Attack, on its own, is big, because that's another chance to hit with your sneak attack. Also, with your restriction removal on sneak attack, you can already use your sneak attack bonus on unarmed attacks, so that's just redundant. [/QUOTE]
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