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Message: <blockquote data-quote="outsider" data-source="post: 4858080" data-attributes="member: 54690">Yeah, this is nothing new.  I was introduced to the concept of roles(though we didn't call them that) back in my first AD&D group around 1992ish.  Heck, the experienced players in the group even called the fighter the "meatshield", YEARS before mmos even existed.  The main difference is rogues actually have a combat role now, and fighters are able to fulfil their role in places other than 10 foot wide corridors.With VERY specific builds, 3rd edition fighters could actually manage the defender role pretty decently.  The problem: this build contained both the most hated weapon in the edition(spiked chain), and rules so complex that even the rare player that managed to figure out the build themselves would find that their DM wouldn't allow it due to it slowing down the game/being broken/etc.I think the problem alot of players are having is that in 4th edition, the man behind the curtain is in plain view.  They are afraid that by acknowledging the game is a game, you make it more of a game.</blockquote>