Strong monsters and grapple

[K'Plah Q'Houme]

As we approach high level in our game (currently lvl. 19), we begin to experience realy strong monsters. With these experiences, comes a lot of questions. And one in particulary stands out at the moment: Big monsters and grapple checks! Take the 'Tarrasque' (MM 3.5 pg. 240) as an example. With a grapple check of 81, it is virtualy impossible to escape, even if a character, let's say a Rogue, has put all her ranks in 'Escape artist' (and lets further say that she applied oils to her armor...slippery ones), it would still be almost impossible, if not utterly impossible, to escape a monster with a grapple check like this. Now we have argued a little about this in our group, and basicly we all agree, that a monster like the 'Tarrasque' has, and should have, an advantage because it is so huge. But still a character also has to have a possiblity to either escape or counter any attack, and we feel that this is almost not present with a monster like this (and many others). What do you guys do about these brutes? Is there some way that a character can overcome a grapple check like this, that you know of other than deploying all available ranks in escape artist (thought about Stones Platoon 'Deploy all remains on my perimiter' scuse me!!!), using magic oils, or perhaps use a helm of teleport to escape, once grappled?

 

[Thanee]

I generally find it a bit weird, that size bonuses can rack up so high.

A creature that gigantic should start to have trouble to actually grapple very small foes.

As a house rule you could say, that escape artist ignores size bonuses and penalties, if you are smaller. There is a feat available, which does something similar, Clever wrestling in CW, but it's not really worth to spend a feat on.

Close-quarters fighting, also from CW, makes it substantially harder to grapple you in the first place.

Other than that... dimension door is your friend.

Bye
Thanee

 

[hong]

Yes, grappling is a killer when going up against high-CR melee brutes. Solutions:

1. Teleport/dim door

2. Freedom of movement

3. Stay out of range

 

[Pants]

4. For god sakes, DON'T GET GRAPPLED!

The elven barbarian in my game learned that the hard way. He was unfortunate enough to get grappled by a very pissed off Glabrezu. Kinda got squished between those pincers. Yuck.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

I generally find it a bit weird, that size bonuses can rack up so high.

A creature that gigantic should start to have trouble to actually grapple very small foes.

As a house rule you could say, that escape artist ignores size bonuses and penalties, if you are smaller.

Yeah, I find the same problem - size bonuses on top of Strength really is too much, and being bigger than your target doesn't help that much in grappling. Being smaller than your target, however, does matter (try grappling a cow or an elephant), so I'd suggest allowing size bonuses only to avoid being grappled, but not in starting or maintaining a grapple.

As for the original question, try to get rings of freedom of movement for everyone - they're worth every single gold piece (40K) they cost.

 

[Thanee]

Altho the ring of freedom of movement is about the same as the helm of teleport (and thus not what he's looking for), that's really a decent way to get rid of nasty grapples.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dogbrain]

There comes a point when a game system or part of it breaks--the "balance" cannot be maintained without some sort of crock. Unfortunately, you have hit this point. The crock I would prefer would be for some sort of Feat to give deft characters their edge back.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

There comes a point when a game system or part of it breaks--the "balance" cannot be maintained without some sort of crock. Unfortunately, you have hit this point.

/sidetrack/
I agree - grappling is too often the monsters' version of "save-or-die". If you get grappled, you're often SOL; if you don't, no effect. But with the huge grappling bonuses (combined with Improved Grab) that some monsters get, it becomes very, very difficult to avoid/escape a grapple. This is an area that cries out for a house-rule until WOTC changes it officially.
/sidetrack off/

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think, Grapple might be a bit underrated in the calculation of monster CRs, especially when they actually have grapple-related abilities (usually at least improved grab). Either that or the size bonus become to high.

One big disadvantage of grappling is the loss of the Dex Bonus to AC (unless we are speaking of the Tarrasque, few creatures can afford a -20 penalty to their grapple checks for avoiding this), but this usually does only matter if its there is a rogue in the group. (Since most big grappling monsters have a low dexterity). And if its an intelligent monster, it might consider the rogue as the first grappling target.. (usually bad strength, lower BAB than fighters.) That or the wizard.

I think a good way to compensate is halving the bonus. (and use the regular size bonus as modifier to Escape Artist checks).

I think this would even the battle ground a little bit, while still giving bigger creatures the upper hand in grapples.

(Don`t forget to change the bonus from Improved Grapple, too. And, while you`re at it, maybe also the bonus from Improved Disarm and Impoved Trip)

A faen, halfing or gnome fighter characters is basically helpless when someone decides to grapple him.

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Thanee]

A faen, halfing or gnome fighter characters is basically helpless when someone decides to grapple him.

Yeah, altho a very huge creature would have a lot of trouble to actually grapple them. Far less than the auto-success it is now.

Bye
Thanee