Struggling with Swordmage //Questions about monster

[sigfile]

@sigfile: It's not like the orc with a great axe.

It's two rounds worth of actions in order to generate the possibility of two rounds worth of damage. There's not spike, per se, because there's been a round of 0 damage and 0 opportunity attacks leading to a round where a successful hit will achieve approximately double damage (and with no chance of a critical on half that damage).

That's exactly what spike damage is.

Look at the Duergar Scout (as seen in a recent season of Encounters versus characters levels 1-3), a level 4 lurker. A crit from a hidden scout would do 37 damage to a single target up to 20 squares away. That's instant dead-10-death to a lot of first level characters, with no chance for a leader or healing action to mitigate the effects.

At higher levels the lurker damage spike just becomes an interesting mechanic - damage mitigation tactics (swordmage aegis, temporary hit point generation, etc) are only half as effective, so damage spikes can force parties to mix up their tactics a bit. The odds of dropping a standing paragon+ PC below negative bloodied with a single hit are terribly low, so instant death isn't really a problem.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That's exactly what spike damage is.

Look at the Duergar Scout (as seen in a recent season of Encounters versus characters levels 1-3), a level 4 lurker. A crit from a hidden scout would do 37 damage to a single target up to 20 squares away. That's instant dead-10-death to a lot of first level characters, with no chance for a leader or healing action to mitigate the effects.

At higher levels the lurker damage spike just becomes an interesting mechanic - damage mitigation tactics (swordmage aegis, temporary hit point generation, etc) are only half as effective, so damage spikes can force parties to mix up their tactics a bit. The odds of dropping a standing paragon+ PC below negative bloodied with a single hit are terribly low, so instant death isn't really a problem.

The chance is pretty low even with heroic tier PCs. The lowest possible PC starting HP is 18. That would require 27 damage to insta-gank. While a Duergar Scout CAN do 38 damage it would have to crit (or max its damage) to do that, after hitting our level 1 wizard while not being seen (IE effectively has to be invisible, though I guess technically one can argue other situations). Obviously they are quite good at becoming invisible and will surely make one or two of these attacks in an encounter. Still, the average damage is 23.5, and only a level one PC Wizard (or a few other classes with min hit points) with an 8 CON is THAT vulnerable. A wizard with a 12 CON for instance has 22 hit points, and can only be killed with 33 damage, unlikely. In any case, it IS a level +3 lurker monster, so this is the worst case scenario for any PC to be in pretty much.

There are a few other monsters that can do similar things to low level PCs, the famous Halfling Slinger for instance is pretty deadly. Still, this is more a reflection of a few monsters being oddly more deadly than the rest than anything else. A level 5 Gnoll Skulker for instance can do only a max of 23 damage, not enough to gank even the weakest level 1 PC. A level 6 Thri-Kreen Ambusher maxes at 32 points (and interestingly has no restrictions on this, though 2d6 of it is an encounter power). Honestly I think that Duergar is nearly unique at its level in terms of lurker single-shot damage output. No MM3 lurker at 5-7 level is even close except the Thri-Kreen. In any case, none of these other lurkers would kill a level 1 PC, let alone one 2 levels closer or one that was stronger. Even the Duergar wouldn't fell a maxed out level 1 Warden, let alone kill it.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

That's exactly what spike damage is. (snip)

Originally you were referring to 3E's orc with greataxe and the spike it achieved on a crit. That's a single round spike.

As I pointed out, the lurker is different because it costs it two rounds worth of actions - and one of those rounds it is immobile and unable to take opportunity actions - to do two rounds worth of damage. That's very different to the random spike of a triple damage hit with a greataxe in a single round.

And, yes, your duergar example may cause 37 damage in a single round... but you don't mention that it also caused exactly 0 damage in the previous round trying to set up the attack. What you really have with the duergar lurker is 0 damage and no opportunity attacks in round one followed by an average damage of 23 1/2 if it hits in round two. That's an average of 11 3/4 damage for each round, consistent with the expected average damage of 12 per round for a level 4 non-brute.

And Abdul Alhazred's post before mine really clarifies how this damage compares to starting 4E hit points. It's really a very different situation to 3E's greataxe-wielding orc guarding a pie.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I interpret the "attack that does not include you" clause as pertaining to typical area attacks where you have multiple attack rolls, but one damage roll. So if a marked enemy uses a close burst attack against the Fighter and the Rogue, no penalties and no triggering of the mark effect, but if he makes 2 melee attacks, one against the Fighter, one against the Rogue, the Rogue benefits from mark.

I think it's one of those things where the rules aren't completely clear, the designers don't seem to have fully thought it through or stuck to a consistent usage, and each table has to sort it out for themselves.

Another one like this is Dazed. If you become dazed during your turn (eg by being hit by an enemy's oppy) do you lose the rest of your actions or not? If you become undazed during your turn (eg by performing an action that gives you a free save) do you get to use the rest of your actions? At my table we used to rule "no" to both questions, but then something came up (can't remember what) that suggested things would play better if we rules "yes" to both questions. So we had a quick discussion as a group (with me, as GM, in the chair) and changed our table ruling.

My interpretation here is:
If you become dazed on your turn after taking an action (standard, minor or move), you lose all remaining actions.
If you become undazed during your turn after taking an action, you only have a move and minor action. Because at the point you took the action, you only had your standard action, and you spend it on whatever you did with it (even if you "downgraded" it to a minor or move action.)

(I am a bit specific here with "after taking n action", since theoretically you might get dazed or undazed by an effect or power just by starting your turn, and when dazed, you are entitled to use a standard action and turn it into a minor or move action).

Somewhere along the line someone thought it was a good idea to have lurkers be the guys dealing absurd spike damage. The Doppelganger Infiltrator is my favorite example. I'm not a fan - this is "Orc with a greataxe and a lucky crit = instant character death" material.

That's pretty much their role description - hide (or in other ways become "difficult to attack and damage") and then come out for nasty attacks. As a player, you have to anticipate their attacks and be prepared with counters (and if it's just a +2 to AC from a utility power or Second Wind). Or just take the damage like a boss.