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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 5094740" data-attributes="member: 43019">You really need to show your math if you want to get exact like that.Let's say we have an elite creature with 200hp with an at-will single target stunned (save ends) attack with a 80% chance of hitting (curse you vulnerable NADs!). We'll assume it does negligible damage for whatever reason (PCs have enough hp or healing to counteract it for the first 20 rounds, whatever). Against him are two PCs that do 20hp when they hit, with a 50% chance to hit, so I can simplify it to 10 per attack. For Heal checks they have a +12, say, giving them a 10% chance to fail the heal check. They've already exhausted all of their actually cool and useful save-granting abilities. One has a 55% chance to succeed at a save, the second one has a 60% chance to succeed at a save. The order of the PCs is a very big deal, of course, since granting a save before the creature gets to go again can suck... so the creature should always focus on the one who goes first, so they can't pop each other out easily.Init:PC1 (starts stunned)PC2MPCs always attack, Mob spreads stun to PC2 when PC1 is stunned:End of Round1: Avg Mob HP 190, 55% PC1 made his save (44% restunned, 11% neither stunned), 45% PC1 failed save (36% both stunned, 9% just PC1 stunned)2: Avg Mob HP 174.5, 40% chance PC1 was stunned and failed a save, 14.4% chance PC2 was stunned and failed a save, 48% chance PC1 got stunned by M (either wasn't stunned or made his save, then it attacked and hit), 32% chance PC2 ended stunned, 6.4% chance neither is stunned...   Things actually quickly hover at around 39.56% PC1 was stunned and failed a save, 48.35% that he wasn't stunned on M's turn and got stunned, 21.1% PC2 was stunned and failed a save, 31.6% that he and PC2 were both not stunned on M's turn and got stunnedAvg M HP3: 159.94: 145.85: 131.7...14: 6.25715: -7.68Okay, now if instead they're always handing out saves when possible, how soon does the monster die...1: Avg Mob HP 200, 77.3% PC1 made his save (61.8% restunned, 15.5% neither stunned), 22.7% PC1 failed save (18.2% both stunned, 4.5% just PC1 stunned)2: Avg Mob HP 196.9, 22.6% PC1 was stunned and failed a save, 61.9% chance he wasn't stunned and is now, 6.7% PC2 was stunned and failed a save, 18.1% chance he wasn't stunned and is now, 15.5% neither was stunned and both made attacksThe monster only takes damage in two cases: Either neither is stunned at the beginning of the round (which rapidly slides to a 3.07% chance) or PC1 is not stunned and PC2 is stunned and PC1 makes his Heal and PC2 makes his save, which rapidly rises to a .95% chance. For an average of .71 damage per round (cause very, very, very few actions are actually taken attacking). Or an average of 185hp in round 15, when the other group killed it.You can't count move actions as equivalent to standard actions. You can't count standard actions used to maybe give someone a save as equivalent to standard actions that will win you a fight.What matters is winning the fight, however that ends up working. And stunning like crazy is one way to make it take longer and suck more.Now, it is possible that after a few rounds PC1's available attacks are at least twice as good as PC2's... so maybe PC2 should do the Heal check thing until PC1 has exhausted their cool attacks. That's all fine and good.</blockquote>

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