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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 4006080" data-attributes="member: 42582">Agreed with all the above.Agreed, this is where the logic of the argument pushes. W&M makes somes comments on how 4e will handle character death, but does not flesh out the mechanics.There is some reason to think that Second Wind mechanics, plus APs, will be important ways of mechanically handling the threat of death (at least at the Heroic Tier). I wouldn't be surprised if dazed and stunned in the RPG also interact with these (or similar) mechanics (I assume that DDM doesn't use APs or Second Wind, and thus couldn't incorporate these into its dazed rules).I agree with you that this is gamism at the expense of simulation. That is the whole point of "adversity for the PC is not adversity for the player": it severs the identity of player and PC which is at the core of simulationist play.But then when you say it reduces the threat, you are to some extent presupposing the very identity which gamism (and also narrativism) deny. After all - especially if dazed and stunned interact with APs and Second Wind - then the threat to the PC in the gameworld is just as great. It's just that the player has a metagame device which allows them to exercise narrative control over the gameworld. (I am assuming here that AP and Second Wind will be presented as metagame devices - I hope that whatever simulationists overlay is given to them doesn't actually infect the game in any serious way.)I don't agree. What tabletop RPGs can do best is give players the chance to play out interesting stories. Decent metagame mechanics facilitate this - and involvement in those stories in turn generates immersion. Unrepentant simulationism gets in the way of the stories, and hence the immersion. At least IMO, the best vehicle for pure immersion in a fantasy world is a literary one, not a gaming one. When I play a game I want to play, not spectate.</blockquote>

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