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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jaer" data-source="post: 4009242" data-attributes="member: 57861">Honestly, I disagree with the use of the word 'fun' in this case.  I don't think things should be changed to because they were not fun for the players.  You are correct that there are some players who go so far as to think failure is not fun.I think the proper way to think about it is "Is this ability creating excitement and tension for the scene?"  4e seems to be bases on the idea of creating dramatic scenes and playing them out.Now, one can argue that there is no more dramatic moment then when the Slay Living hits and the character needs to Save or die.  The problem is that all the drama is built up into one moment, one roll of the die, and then it is gone.  No matter what the out-come, the tension is relieved (and either the character goes on or the player is bored).There is much more drama to a fight that is building slowly, like a petrification effect that is slowing down the character, round by round, turning them to stone.  That creates a much longer and more dramatic scene then a simple roll of the die to see if you keep fighting to go play the Wii.  Struggling against the damage and different conditions and threats, saving the day and defeating the BBEG in the face of peril and beating him down with sword and spell alike. That is the stuff of stories and legends, not "I got lucky and rolled high on my fort save.  He did not."A lot of things can happen that aren't 'fun' for the character, but often they do build drama, suspense, and tension, which draws the players in and make the game all the more intense and engaging.  Save or die, paralysis, stoning, and even the rolling to confirm a x3 crit can create a heavy dose of drama, but it's all or nothing.  Little build up to it, and instant relief from it.  I think moving away from such things will enhance game play.</blockquote>

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