Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4011413" data-attributes="member: 4937">I recognize the distinction.  I don't recognize the distinction as particularly germane.  It is not as if the the 4E design team has said, "We intend to remove paralyzation effects from the game because we don't want to turn players into observers."  That is one stance, and if you make it, then I'll argue against that.  But, the removal of paralyzation and the nerfing of stuns is occurring in much larger context.  Lots and lots of conditions, many of which don't in fact force the player to spend time as an audience are being removed from the game on the grounds that they are not 'fun'.  For example, 'energy drain' is going away, and it would be difficult to advance the argument that energy drain causes non-participation in the same way that paralysis does.  So I can concede that there is some value in keeping players involved by not taking thier characters away from them without in any fashion thinking that really describes the big picture here.The big picture is that 'not participating' is just one class of things that are being called 'not fun' and hense removed.  So far in this thread, we've listed a whole variaty of things which can limit your participation.  Things that are equivalent to non-participation can include: fear effects, paralysis, unconsciousness, domination, being pinned or confined, being mazed, being stunned, and death.  Alot of other things are quite similar to non-participation in that the player loses much of his free will, and these can include suggestions, polymorph, being confused, or being feebleminded or similarly having your effective stats reduced to the point of being a zombie or vegetable.  This already covers a broad swath of the things that can happen to a character, but to that we list have to add things that only potentially limit participation which are being nerfed or removed like ability damage and energy drain, but which in small amounts don't actually do so.  To that we probably would need to add exhausition and various long term curses which are comparable to ability damage, in that while they don't end participation create any sort of high burden on the character that the players ability to participate might well be comprimised.  All these things are touched on by the argument that bad things can happen to characters, so long as the don't impinge on the participation of the players.But that's just the beginning of the problem.  Just as 'paralyzation' is just a subclass of the effects being talked about as 'unfun', 'not participating' is just a general subclass of the various things that can happen to a character that impact a players fun.  Very quickly this argument can become, and in my opinion already has become, a substitute or special case for the more general claim, "Bad things can happen to characters, just so long as bad things don't happen to players."  There is no sense in countering that I'm inventing this slippery slope, since we are already rapidly sliding down it.  Compare EGG's perspective of thirty years ago with the perspective being offered by most of the thread, and then take a look at some of the even more radical statements being offered in other threads.  There is nothing wrong with making the game have mechanics similar to Toon, except that there is everything wrong with it if what you are trying to capture is an experience very different than Toon.Let me go a step further than just arguing against the slippery slope.  I don't even think a player with a paralyzed character is reduced from participating to the degree that the character is.  Yes, he is reduced for a time period to an observer status, but so what?  I enjoy watching good roleplay, in much the same way I enjoy watching good theater, only more so - because these are my friends.  Observer status is not the same as no participation.  To claim that it is, is to claim that a sports fan at a stadium is not participating in the event because he isn't on the field, or that the players on defence aren't participating because the offense is on the field.  There are obvious bad things involved in not being able to participate in a game for a long period of time, but its a risk I think worth taking - especially given the ease of healing and restoration and even ressurection in D&D.  It's not like the person is forced to go into the other room and wear a blindfold for the duration.But maybe I'm just too 'old skewl'.</blockquote>

Verification