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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 4641222" data-attributes="member: 1363">Ah, the page 42 debate!I believe that what you're considering LostSoul, is that page 42 covers damage expressions well, however it does not cover any of the following:forced movement effectstactical condition effectscontinuous damage effectsIf your player tries to do something "cool" that is more in these categories, how does that disrupt the balance, if at all.For example, a lvl 6 rogue (brutal scoundrel) sneaks up on a "guard" and wants to knock him out in one shot with a blow to the back of the head.  Ok, stealth check, moderate DC = 17.  The rogue's +12, so a five or better and he's golden.  The rogue's deft strike with combat advantage and sneak attack would normally give him 1w(1d6)+Dex(4)+Cha(2)+sneak(2d6)+strength(2) = 3d6+8, with a successful Dex vs. AC attack (+2 for CA).  (Wow, I need to play me a rogue...)  If the rogue indicates he's willing to use his encounter power (Torturous Strike) it would be 2w + STR again, therefore 4d6+10.  Now, the guard is a standard Level 5 soldier, AC 23 and 65 hp.  This rogue can light him up, but not knock him out in a blow.  Out of the book, my damage expressions, even at high are only 2d8+4 or 3d10+4, both close, but inferior to the rogue's basic damage.  (Although not if you could add sneak attack damage on top?).  One ruling, is that I could consider the target "helpless" and this is a coup de gras attack.  This indicates that a successful hit, is a crit (max damage) and if bloodied, the target is unconscious.  The encounter level damage expression would be sufficient to push the soldier past bloodied on a critical.  But is this fair?  Why wouldn't the rogue open with this attack in EVERY encounter?  Why wouldn't EVERYONE try to do the same?  To be less devastating, what if I rule that a successful attack will also provide a dazed condition effect (save ends).  Or even more severe, a dazed effect with a failed save resulting in a stunned effect (save ends).  This is perhaps less "powerful" than a coup de gras effect, but still a more powerful attack option than the rogue would otherwise have access.  How powerful can these "condition" effects be?  Does this also vary by level/power as a PC becomes more powerful?  Perhaps at heroic the rogue can daze this way, paragon they can daze/stun, and epic they can coup de gras?  These are important questions that still need to be fleshed out.</blockquote>

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