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<blockquote data-quote="Ravilah" data-source="post: 3563816" data-attributes="member: 19724">I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard. By the same token, my players seem to crank out 18-20+ on their saves (their WEAK saves) with annoying regularity. It's at the point where I don't bother throwing a spell at them unless it has negative effects even with a successful save.&nbsp; I mean, it's not like they always roll above a 20, but since a villain/monster only has an average of 3-5 rounds before it's taken down, I find it imprudent to waste a precious round on something that has such a good chance of being shrugged off.My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am. And I hesitate to pile a lot of magic items on my evil wizards, ect. lest the players then get to loot them--making them more unstoppable than ever.It just occurred to me that that this sounds a bit like it's DM vs. Player.&nbsp; Well it IS dammit!&nbsp; &lt;Ahem&gt; Sorry.&nbsp; Not really.&nbsp; I just can't seem to find the happy medium between easy and impossible. And just once in a while I'd like my players to get surprised in an ambush.Sorry for the rant.R</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ravilah, post: 3563816, member: 19724"] I was just wondering if anyone (specifically DMs) has ever found that by about level 10, most PCs have Spot/Listen checks so out of this world that nothing short of a shadowdancer wearing a Cloak of Elvenkind at Midnight has much chance of successfully staying unseen or unheard. By the same token, my players seem to crank out 18-20+ on their saves (their WEAK saves) with annoying regularity. It's at the point where I don't bother throwing a spell at them unless it has negative effects even with a successful save. I mean, it's not like they always roll above a 20, but since a villain/monster only has an average of 3-5 rounds before it's taken down, I find it imprudent to waste a precious round on something that has such a good chance of being shrugged off. My players are all better at crunching numbers and putting together powerful class combos than I am. And I hesitate to pile a lot of magic items on my evil wizards, ect. lest the players then get to loot them--making them more unstoppable than ever. It just occurred to me that that this sounds a bit like it's DM vs. Player. Well it IS dammit! <Ahem> Sorry. Not really. I just can't seem to find the happy medium between easy and impossible. And just once in a while I'd like my players to get surprised in an ambush. Sorry for the rant. R [/QUOTE]

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