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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 3565601" data-attributes="member: 704">I have not had that problem.  My current group has no PC's that have useful spot / listen modifiers.The first suggestion that occurs to me is to start applying the distance modifiers for spot and listen as much as possible.  And to consider that it is just as easy to pump up hide / move silently as it is to pump up spot and listen check.As a side consideration, it may be that you have only your self to blame.  Your players will learn from your tactics over time.  Maybe you have made a career of springing ambushes on them at every viable opportunity.  Or maybe you have just nearly TPK'ed them once or twice by getting the winning end of a Spot vs Hide check.  If that is the case, then do not be shocked when they start maxing their Spot and Listen skills, take the Alertness feat, and buy guard dogs.    Resist the urge to punish them deciding to maximize certain skills.  My players have been making a habit of destroying NPC's with Hold Person and Hideous Laughter.  That does not mean I should start using undead and strong will creatures just to punish that spell selection.The next consideration is to take the advice of Sun Tzu.  Do not attack strength with strength.  Attack weakness with strength.  Perhaps ambush is just not the right way to challenge your players.  Instead of scoring the ambush, or worrying about High Save values, try something else.  Instead of going for an ambush, you could consider hit and run tactics with high mobility.  Move into range, attack for a few rounds, then retreat and repeat.  This will force them to burn off spells with much less effect than normal.Instead of trying for spells that provoke saves, try for spells that just make life difficult.  A well placed wall of stone can split the party and let you divide an conquer.  Summon earth elementals that grapple spell casters.  Drop Darkness and Fog spells that make it nearly impossible for their casters to target your monsters.  Or drop a bunch of protection spells to fortify your own troops.Lastly, how exactly are the saving throws getting so high anyway?  It has been pretty well documented that the saves you gain at first level of a new class break down when you just stack a bunch of different classes together, but that is hard to fix without a house rull.  Are they using buffs or magic items to acheive this?END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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