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Subclass System in 5e- Too Much, Too Little, or Just Right (GOLDILOCKS POLL!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8057143" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>One of the defining traits of A Fifth of D&D (not to confused with either a Fifth of Beethoven or a Fifth of Bourbon, aka how I go to sleep every night during the pandemic) is the Class / Subclass system. While there are variations on it, for the most part it works like this:</p><p></p><p>A. You pick a class. Your class defines almost all of your abilities.</p><p></p><p>B. Then you get a subclass (or archetype). This provides some additional "flavor" or "ribbons" or "crunch" at certain points. </p><p></p><p>How the subclass impacts the class can vary. Here's a quick rundown:</p><p></p><p><strong>Barbarian</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 6, 10, and 14.</p><p></p><p><strong>Bard</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 6 and 14.</p><p></p><p><strong>Cleric</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 1, 2, 6, 8, and 17.</p><p></p><p><strong>Druid</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 2, 6, 10, and 14.</p><p></p><p><strong>Fighter</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 7, 10, 15, and 18.</p><p></p><p><strong>Monk</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 6, 11 and 17.</p><p></p><p><strong>Paladin</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 7, 15 and 20.</p><p></p><p><strong>Ranger</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 7, 11, and 15.</p><p></p><p><strong>Rogue</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 3, 9, 13, and 17.</p><p></p><p><strong>Sorcerer</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 1, 6, 14, and 18.</p><p></p><p><strong>Warlock</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 1, 6, 10, and 14 (Pact)</p><p>Other subclass at 3 (Boon)</p><p></p><p><strong>Wizard</strong></p><p>Subclass features at 2, 6, 10 and 14.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What observations can we draw from this?</p><p></p><p>1. 5e made a very deliberate decision regarding classes in terms of design. I listed all of the 5e classes, but with the exception of the Artificer and (kind of) the Blood Hunter, 5e, in terms of official classes, hasn't really expanded. As such, the design space in 5e is almost entirely in the subclasses, which is why we see so many released either officially or for playtest.</p><p></p><p>2. The actual space for design is fairly limited. It is limited first in terms of space/slots. That is why, for example, the new College of Spirits just released has the same 3/6/14 abilities shared by all Bard subclasses. But, more importantly, it is limited by power. That's why, for example, the 7th level "ability" of fighter subclasses is usually kind of lower-powered. You don't want any particular subclass to easily outshine the rest. </p><p></p><p>3. As a general rule, martial classes get subclasses at level 3, while spellcasters get subclasses at 1 & 2.</p><p></p><p>4. Finally, the Warlock (arguably) has the only real "twist" when it comes to sublclasses, having two choice points due to the Pact/Boon combination. I do not believe that mechanic is reflected in any other class (yes, I know Totem Barbarians can choose ....). </p><p></p><p></p><p>Anyway, I think that there is a definite elegance to the design, but I also think it can be limiting; after a while, many subclasses often just seem like coats of a paint on a house. Sure, the color on the outside is different, but it still has the same interior. </p><p></p><p>So I thought I'd put up a simple Goldilocks Poll and open this up for conversation.</p><p></p><p>Is the Subclass System in 5e:</p><p></p><p>A. Too limiting.</p><p>B. Just right.</p><p>C. Too open.</p><p></p><p>For (A) "too limiting" I mean that the subclass system artificially limits your options. That there should be more choice points.</p><p>For (C) "too open" I mean that there are too many choice points in subclasses, and you'd prefer to go to a classic class system, where different abilities are gained through different classes, not just new subclasses.</p><p></p><p>For those people who have a different answer (you want a gestalt system, you refuse to answer because you are allergic to gold, etc.) either pick the one closest to your answer and you can explain, or feel free to kvetch about the unfairness of it all in the comments. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8057143, member: 7023840"] One of the defining traits of A Fifth of D&D (not to confused with either a Fifth of Beethoven or a Fifth of Bourbon, aka how I go to sleep every night during the pandemic) is the Class / Subclass system. While there are variations on it, for the most part it works like this: A. You pick a class. Your class defines almost all of your abilities. B. Then you get a subclass (or archetype). This provides some additional "flavor" or "ribbons" or "crunch" at certain points. How the subclass impacts the class can vary. Here's a quick rundown: [B]Barbarian[/B] Subclass features at 3, 6, 10, and 14. [B]Bard[/B] Subclass features at 3, 6 and 14. [B]Cleric[/B] Subclass features at 1, 2, 6, 8, and 17. [B]Druid[/B] Subclass features at 2, 6, 10, and 14. [B]Fighter[/B] Subclass features at 3, 7, 10, 15, and 18. [B]Monk[/B] Subclass features at 3, 6, 11 and 17. [B]Paladin[/B] Subclass features at 3, 7, 15 and 20. [B]Ranger[/B] Subclass features at 3, 7, 11, and 15. [B]Rogue[/B] Subclass features at 3, 9, 13, and 17. [B]Sorcerer[/B] Subclass features at 1, 6, 14, and 18. [B]Warlock[/B] Subclass features at 1, 6, 10, and 14 (Pact) Other subclass at 3 (Boon) [B]Wizard[/B] Subclass features at 2, 6, 10 and 14. What observations can we draw from this? 1. 5e made a very deliberate decision regarding classes in terms of design. I listed all of the 5e classes, but with the exception of the Artificer and (kind of) the Blood Hunter, 5e, in terms of official classes, hasn't really expanded. As such, the design space in 5e is almost entirely in the subclasses, which is why we see so many released either officially or for playtest. 2. The actual space for design is fairly limited. It is limited first in terms of space/slots. That is why, for example, the new College of Spirits just released has the same 3/6/14 abilities shared by all Bard subclasses. But, more importantly, it is limited by power. That's why, for example, the 7th level "ability" of fighter subclasses is usually kind of lower-powered. You don't want any particular subclass to easily outshine the rest. 3. As a general rule, martial classes get subclasses at level 3, while spellcasters get subclasses at 1 & 2. 4. Finally, the Warlock (arguably) has the only real "twist" when it comes to sublclasses, having two choice points due to the Pact/Boon combination. I do not believe that mechanic is reflected in any other class (yes, I know Totem Barbarians can choose ....). Anyway, I think that there is a definite elegance to the design, but I also think it can be limiting; after a while, many subclasses often just seem like coats of a paint on a house. Sure, the color on the outside is different, but it still has the same interior. So I thought I'd put up a simple Goldilocks Poll and open this up for conversation. Is the Subclass System in 5e: A. Too limiting. B. Just right. C. Too open. For (A) "too limiting" I mean that the subclass system artificially limits your options. That there should be more choice points. For (C) "too open" I mean that there are too many choice points in subclasses, and you'd prefer to go to a classic class system, where different abilities are gained through different classes, not just new subclasses. For those people who have a different answer (you want a gestalt system, you refuse to answer because you are allergic to gold, etc.) either pick the one closest to your answer and you can explain, or feel free to kvetch about the unfairness of it all in the comments. :) [/QUOTE]
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