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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8795589" data-attributes="member: 23751">That's certainly an issue that other subclasses solve by allowing different skills to be taken.&nbsp; I don't see why you couldn't talk to your DM about it and point that out. It's pretty clearly a sloppy oversight on the part of WotC.But again, this isn't really jarring if you don't set it up to be.&nbsp; Are the changes significant? Sure.&nbsp; Do they make sense? Most of the time yes, and the rest of the time you should be able to set it up to make sense.Can you give me an example of a subclass that can't be set up in such a way that the changes make sense at 3rd level?At the loss of base class abilities, sure.&nbsp; The classes that currently have subclasses that start at level 1 account for it already.&nbsp; Are you willing to push Fighting Style and Action Surge to 3rd level, and Second Wind to 2nd level so that you can get Superiority Dice, Maneuvers and Student of War at 1st level?Specific beats general.&nbsp; That's all that needs to be said.&nbsp; The rule even quotes class features as being something specific that does beat general.&nbsp; No amount of stating that the general spell rules follow a set progression is going to turn it in to anything other than a general rule about spell progression.&nbsp; A rule that specifically overrides that will always be more specific than such general rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8795589, member: 23751"] That's certainly an issue that other subclasses solve by allowing different skills to be taken. I don't see why you couldn't talk to your DM about it and point that out. It's pretty clearly a sloppy oversight on the part of WotC. But again, this isn't really jarring if you don't set it up to be. Are the changes significant? Sure. Do they make sense? Most of the time yes, and the rest of the time you should be able to set it up to make sense. Can you give me an example of a subclass that can't be set up in such a way that the changes make sense at 3rd level? At the loss of base class abilities, sure. The classes that currently have subclasses that start at level 1 account for it already. Are you willing to push Fighting Style and Action Surge to 3rd level, and Second Wind to 2nd level so that you can get Superiority Dice, Maneuvers and Student of War at 1st level? Specific beats general. That's all that needs to be said. The rule even quotes class features as being something specific that does beat general. No amount of stating that the general spell rules follow a set progression is going to turn it in to anything other than a general rule about spell progression. A rule that specifically overrides that will always be more specific than such general rules. [/QUOTE]

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