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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dr_Ruminahui" data-source="post: 5193922" data-attributes="member: 81104">I agree with you that's how it works, but I disagree with that there's a problem - the mechanic worked fine for my 3e group. We didn't do it unless we explicitly wanted someone alive - not too much hassle to focus fire the other baddies with spells while the melee guys bludgeoned the target. And in 3e, the -4 wasn't that big of deal - you still usually hit with your primary attacks, its just the secondaries (and tertiaries, etc.) that it really mattered for.  So, it seems my 3e experience with the subdual rules is quite different from yours - which is fair enough. And it may just be because we were used to the 3e mechanic that the 4e one seemed a bit... odd. I think I prefer the 3e one, but not enough to do actually change from using the 4e rules. Indeed, its only in a situation where you had 3+ sides that the differences between the two rulesets was highlighted... and since its quite rare that non-lethal is used, the circumstances where there are 3+ sides and the 4e rules seem strange will be much, much rarer.</blockquote>