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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6909041" data-attributes="member: 4937">In this case, why even track alignment?&nbsp; What would it actually mean?&nbsp; What purpose would it have?&nbsp; Is alignment only to mean 'self-esteem'?&nbsp; Those with high self-esteem think of themselves as 'good' and those with low as 'evil?&nbsp;&nbsp; Won't this mean that alignment will exhibit Dunning-Krugar effects where the arrogant will believe themselves Good (believing themselves better than the average), while the humble will believe themselves Evil (having fallen short of their own high standards)?&nbsp; You'll end up with a system where those who are worst are ranked best, and those who are best are ranked worst.&nbsp;&nbsp; People with low wisdom will tend to believe in their own perfection, while those with high wisdom will self-reflectively note all their shortcomings and limitations.&nbsp; Worse, the whole system would seem to become recursive, and fall down the rabbit hole.&nbsp; Do people know this is true of alignment?&nbsp; If you know your alignment is subjective, would you think that alignment is something you meaningfully have?&nbsp; If you don't think alignment is something you meaningfully have, wouldn't you tend - even if you think positively of your own actions - that they are neutral/unaligned, since alignment lacks in reality?&nbsp;&nbsp; But if you do think that alignment has meaning, wouldn't at least you know whether or not you took your cue as to what alignment meant from something outside yourself (&quot;Law&quot;) or from your own judgment (&quot;Chaos&quot;)?&nbsp; Wouldn't you at least know whether you conformed to societal consensus as to what was right or wrong, or whether you rejected that?&nbsp;&nbsp; And if you did, wouldn't alignment tend to cease to be subjective?&nbsp;&nbsp; If you truly know that alignment has no meaning, could you really justify whether anything was right or wrong?&nbsp;&nbsp; Or if you do believe that there is right or wrong, why would you rely on alignment to know anything. knowing as you did that it had no relation to right and wrong.&nbsp;&nbsp; And what would you say that this right and wrong would be?&nbsp; So if I understand you correctly, Know Alignment is now judging whether or not someone agrees with your own views?&nbsp; Yet you seem to waver on that and suggest that, no, on the other hand, perhaps Know Alignment only confirms your own biases - meaning it is a divination spell that leaves you with less information than you started out with.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6909041, member: 4937"] In this case, why even track alignment? What would it actually mean? What purpose would it have? Is alignment only to mean 'self-esteem'? Those with high self-esteem think of themselves as 'good' and those with low as 'evil? Won't this mean that alignment will exhibit Dunning-Krugar effects where the arrogant will believe themselves Good (believing themselves better than the average), while the humble will believe themselves Evil (having fallen short of their own high standards)? You'll end up with a system where those who are worst are ranked best, and those who are best are ranked worst. People with low wisdom will tend to believe in their own perfection, while those with high wisdom will self-reflectively note all their shortcomings and limitations. Worse, the whole system would seem to become recursive, and fall down the rabbit hole. Do people know this is true of alignment? If you know your alignment is subjective, would you think that alignment is something you meaningfully have? If you don't think alignment is something you meaningfully have, wouldn't you tend - even if you think positively of your own actions - that they are neutral/unaligned, since alignment lacks in reality? But if you do think that alignment has meaning, wouldn't at least you know whether or not you took your cue as to what alignment meant from something outside yourself ("Law") or from your own judgment ("Chaos")? Wouldn't you at least know whether you conformed to societal consensus as to what was right or wrong, or whether you rejected that? And if you did, wouldn't alignment tend to cease to be subjective? If you truly know that alignment has no meaning, could you really justify whether anything was right or wrong? Or if you do believe that there is right or wrong, why would you rely on alignment to know anything. knowing as you did that it had no relation to right and wrong. And what would you say that this right and wrong would be? So if I understand you correctly, Know Alignment is now judging whether or not someone agrees with your own views? Yet you seem to waver on that and suggest that, no, on the other hand, perhaps Know Alignment only confirms your own biases - meaning it is a divination spell that leaves you with less information than you started out with. [/QUOTE]

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