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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 1657639" data-attributes="member: 957">Whatever. I forgot that wotc for whatever reason decided not to supply values for monsters they deemed inappropriate.So I am in error on this entirely tangential specific item....I have no idea why they do not deem those creature appropriate, as they meet the definitions presented on page 7.As with Haste being 3rd level, lack of mechanical guidance does not mean you can not make other non-damage dealing 3rd level spells.  And back to the start of the issue we go.....Some terms from D&D, such as CR, have refined or otherwise tweaked meanings in the UK/GT system.  You are using the terms interchangebly and then attacking the points where that assumption fails.Obviously LA derives from non HD factors.  I never claimed otherwise.  You are simply shooting down a strawman argument of your own creation.And it is certainly a truism that in D&D ECL != CR.But in D&D, PCs don't really have CRs.  GT PCs do have CRs and the definitions have morphed to some degree.The GT definition of CR includes the built in concept of CR vs same CR is a 50/50 single fight.  That does not apply to D&D.  It may frequently happen to be true by the nature of the system, but it is not an absolute.  The level of a character includes consideration of overall effectiveness outside of a combat.  GT CR  is about combat.GT uses CR to assign XP.  D&D uses level.  Thus D&D considers factors outside of combat whereas GT is anchored to combat.  (To avoid a tangent, I of course understand that "combat" may be more encompassing than simple violence, but direct battle is a simple and valid analogy and a fair high portion of encounters work around that model)Bottom line:  While D&D ECL = HD+LA and != CR, GT CR effectively replaces D&D ECL and GT CR by defintion = HD+LA.    That is where the GT system does require added GM judgement.  The previosuly discussed case where you have two CR6 characters, one standard and one with fast healing is a good example.  In a single combat they are a 50/50 fight.  GT looks at that and decides they therefore deserve equal XP.  OK, that is valid.  But, IF the Fast Healing guy wins, he will greatly benefit from his fast healing.  D&D looks at that consideration and says that the Fast Healing guy is better overall (probably via a further +1 LA) and therefore gives the fast healing guy less XP for the same fight.  Because the GT system only looks at the single fight odds, there is no real concept of overall ECL and it is left to the GM to determine if allowing an otherwise overall equal CR character with fast healing is appropriate to the game.In GT, the entire CR defintion is built on factors which include contributions from both HD and those other things that are non-HD associated.  So the very idea of LA is blurred and redundant anyway.  In part this is because it is fairly well agreed upon that monster HD don't give the same bang for the buck as character levels.  Thus, treating HD as an addend for calculation of ECL is not very accurate.  GT/UK does a good job of addressing this in a more thoughtful manner, as you described.</blockquote>

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