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Message: <blockquote data-quote="porpentine" data-source="post: 4936698" data-attributes="member: 85339">Well, this is now off-topic, and we should probably move it to another thread, but...The issue isn't wizard vs fighter. I guess the example progression I suggested was misleading. The point about the wizard crafters I've seen optimally played is that they don't just create items for themselves. The headband+2 at 3rd is punchy, but that alone would be suboptimal. No, the real crafter crafts matching dinky pairs of winged boots for the entire party. (Or stat boosters - even easier).So in PF, the fighter can also be crafting wondrous, as can the gnomish rogue. You mention time constraints in your own game. You can see where I'm going with that. I'm guessing you're an experienced DM, but not every game-runner is going to know how to handle a party who takes shifts each evening making matching wondrous items, or who end up with excess wealth via creation (do you adjust treasure received in a published adventure? Of course you do, but how long before the new DM cottons on to that?), or who can render encounters redundant through group flight/levitation etc. And really, is the example elven wiz above such a heavyweight creator even in time terms? He's crafting at 3rd, 7th and 10th levels...hardly turbo-charged, over a campaign. It depends on the levelling rate, but crafting can get a lot more busy than that.There's nothing exceptional about this. Traditionally, the wizard has been set up to do this as a class. To craft is to play to the class strengths. In 3.5 the metamagic feats were mostly so-so, so where else were the wizard bonus feats going but on crafting?The same goes in PF, and the new crafting rules don't alleviate the potential issues. In fact, crafting is a smoother ride without XP costs (which do add up, if you're crafting regularly), and the bonded item and new feat rules mean the wizard doesn't have to work alone.If it's not a problem in your game, Bill, great - it probably isn't in most, because most players can't be bothered to craft. But it can be an issue. It's always been a fuzzy rules area, with lots of power to exploit, and PF doesn't address the potential exploitations; if anything it makes them more accessible.As to downtime: yes, that's a good controlling factor. But the party can still create on the hoof, and if there's teaming up they can work pretty fast.In short: I wish crafting was more difficult or risky. I would much prefer the DC to mean something. As it is it's pretty pointless. My hunch is that the creation DC was intended to balance out the loss of XP costs, but it doesn't do that (to my mind) because the chance of failure is so small.</blockquote>

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