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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7232975">Well okay sure that's great and all, but adding classes provides a reasonable framework for an expected outcome.  If you add sorcerer levels to an Orc, you're going to end up with an Orc...who plays like a sorcerer.  While adding individual features may create a more unique outcome, it's a much more subtle process, and one that, frankly, is more likely to produce unpredictable results since you are combining features without a framework to balance their application.As someone who has gone up and down the "monster creation" charts since the MM was released they absolutely confound me.  They are some of the most inscrutable monster creation and adjustment rules I have ever read.  I can guarantee much more regular and much more reliable results by adding class levels than by ever following those charts.  But to my other point: those charts still produce weak monsters.And of course as always: the solution to "how weak or strong did I make this?" is to playtest it.  Roll up a party and have them fight your monster.  It's not terribly hard, make minor adjustments as necessary.CR is an absolutely ridiculous measure.  It always has been, and it always will be.  It should never have been re-included in 5E.  Yes, class levels are not exactly 1-for-1, I never suggested they were.  I suggested that adding levels is simple and added that it provides are reliable framework.  Just willy-nilly adding the abilities you want to a monster is frankly, much more likely to get unpredictable results.Yes, you can get different results by adding different non-class elements.  That shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.A boss is likely to require something special, and I agree with this and I have often done so.  But class levels provide a reliable, simple framework.  Each has its benefits and it is, IMO easier to add levels and features, then remove the features you don't want, and replace them with non-class features you prefer.</blockquote>

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