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Message: <blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 5969858" data-attributes="member: 1210">IIRC group checks are in the DMG2.Some groups like to do the exxxtreme planning thing; maybe your group is one of them. Here are a couple of my rules of thumb for running skill challenges (which I love, btw):1. Either explicitly explain the minigame or keep it all rp. DO NOT split the difference. Good "explicitly explained" SCs would be things where you want the mechanics to influence play, e.g. you want the pcs to know that opening the fancy locks on the chest requires a total of 6 Thievery successes so that they can choose their in-combat actions wisely. Good 'all rp' SCs are those where you want to maintain immersion, which is usually about 85% of them IMHO. 2. Never have a list of skills that apply. Instead, have a list of how you expect your pcs will try to apply their skills. I prefer to have  a list of probable pc tactics with applicable skill DCs but am pretty much always open to reasonable ideas on how to apply other skills or powers.3. Try to think of your skill challenge, if it requires more than 6 successes, as more than a single scene. Add complications in the middle somewhere. 4. I'm opposed to 4e's general advice on failing a skill challenge, which boils down to "it shouldn't hurt too much." I'm fine with a failed skill challenge resulting in serious trouble for a party or even death/tpk if the challenge involves sufficiently dangerous stuff (for instance, a hurricane is not a combat challenge but might well prove lethal). Then again, I prefer a high-lethality game. Furthermore, this isn't to say that every skill challenge should be potentially lethal- but if you earn the same xp as from a combat, there ought to be real and significant penalties for failure.Here are two examples of skill challenges I have run or am running soon. MY PLAYERS STAY OUT OF THE SECOND SPOILER BLOCK, PLEASE! YOU HAVEN'T DONE THAT ONE YET![sblock]The pcs should be able to hire a boat to take them out on White Lake for a couple of gold pieces, but the island itself is cloaked by a combination of illusions and weather magic (cloaking it in fog).  In order to find it, the pcs must defeat this magic by completing a skill challenge. RUNNING THE SKILL CHALLENGE    Finding the island is a level 11, complexity 3 skill challenge.  To successfully complete it, the pcs must achieve 8 successes before 3 failures.  Once the pcs get close (after they have achieved 5 successes), see Complications, below.    Since a combination of illusion and weather hide it, the pcs' possible approaches to finding the illusion include the following:    Search Grid: The lake is truly too large to divide and search without immense manpower, but the pcs can spend six hours to eliminate everything within a few miles of the Delphinate proper.  Doing this doesn't require any skill checks or gain a success or failure for the party, but gives all further checks in the skill challenge a +2 bonus.     Pierce Illusions: A character that expresses the belief that illusions are involved may attempt to see through them with an Insight check (DC 27).  Success means that the character earns a success; though they cannot see through the veils of mist, they can make out which ones are illusory. Failure ensnares the characters further in the misty magic; they gain a failure.     Countermagic or Follow the Flow: A character trained in Arcana may attempt to sense the presence and direction of flow of the magical energy that cloak the island (DC 19); doing this earns one success for the party, while failing earns the party a failure.  Once the presence of the magic has been sensed, a trained character may attempt to countermand the cloaking spells here in order to eliminate them, but doing so is very difficult (DC 29).  A character that makes this check earns two successes, while failing it gains only a single failure.  A character that uses dispel magic against the fog earns an automatic success for the party.    True Navigation: The characters may attempt to simply use their Perception (DC 23) or knowledge of Nature (DC 19) to navigate.  Using such a skill earns either a success or failure for the party.  Alternatively, a character could make a History check (DC 19) to remember details on the locations of the lake's islands; the party can earn only one success this way (although they could conceivably earn multiple failures!).     Watch the Ghouls: During and after the attack of the sodden ghouls (see Complications), a pc could try to discern the direction of the island by watching their behavior using either Insight (DC 19) or Religion (DC 19).  A daring character might also swim in pursuit, using Athletics (DC 20).  The characters earn successes or failures for any of these instances.    Rituals:  Using a divination or weather control ritual earns the pcs one to three successes, depending on the ritual, its level and how cleverly the party uses it.    Complications: As the pcs get closer to the island, they enter a more active layer of the island's defenses.  After their 5th success, the party is ambushed by a trio of sodden ghoul wailers (OG 154; level 9 soldiers), who attack from the water, attempting to pull the boat's pilot into the water before dealing with the pcs themselves.  The round after they attack, two more sodden ghoul wailers grab the boat from under the water and attempt to tow the vessel away.  Each round until that the ghouls tow the boat, the pcs lose one success.      As soon as the pcs defeat the three sodden ghoul wailers above the water, the other two retreat into the depths unless any pcs are in the water, in which case they attempt to drag them under and slay them.  If the pcs want to attack the two ghouls under the water, they must enter the water or hole the deck of the boat.     Each time the pcs achieve a 5th success, they are attacked by another group of ghouls unless they are still dealing with the first group.  In practice, this means that they must continue to work on the skill challenge while fighting the ghouls, or they will end up fighting group after group of them without ever making headway.     Success: When the pcs achieve their 8th success, read the following:    In the mist ahead, a rocky island starts to resolve itself.  A short pier, inexpertly constructed of wood, bobs above the waves, with three small rowing craft attached.  You can see the suggestion of a steep upward slope, but the thick vapor in the air makes it impossible to tell more.     Failure: The pcs become hopelessly lost.  It is full dark by the time they finally find shore, and it takes until almost 2 a.m. to return to the Delphinate.  The pilot who took the pcs on this journey, if still alive, must be impressively compensated or he swears off the party thereafter.[/sblock][sblock]    This is the pool of an earth weird named Groolool, a soothsayer of death and wealth. A creature with a passive Arcana or Nature of at least 23 will recognize it for what it is and allow a skill challenge to first, persuade the weird to manifest, and second, persuade it to prophesize.If at any point the pcs accumulate 3 failures in the skill challenge, Groolool will sink into a deep sleep and cannot be woken for a year and a day. Skill Challenge Part 1: First, getting the weird to manifest requires at least 4 successes with skill checks. Creatures that simply sit out this part of the skill challenge leave Groolool unimpressed and incur an automatic failure. Possible approaches include:    Arcana: Use arcane skills to persuade (DC 22) or force (DC 26) it to manifest. Creatures can only gain 2 successes using Arcana.    Athletics: Vigorously stirring the earth in the pool (DC 24) gets the weird's attention.    Diplomacy: Speaking to the pool in Primordial, a creature might persuade the weird to manifest (DC 21; +5 bonus if the speaker asks the weird to prophesize; only three successes possible).    Insight: With a DC 22 Insight check, a creature does not gain a success, but can remove a single failure by speaking soothingly to the pool. This can only happen once during the challenge.    Intimidate: Threatening to break the pool (DC 28) or spread its earth around outside the pool (DC 23) is an effective tactic, though the weird will not be friendly. Creatures can only get 2 successes with Intimidate.Nature: Like Arcana, this skill can coax (DC 21) or force (DC 25) the weird forth.    Skill Challenge Part 2: The weird manifests as a naked woman made of earth, with a serpentine lower body. She does not even speak until the pcs gain 3 more successes on the skill challenge (7 total); at that point she will declare that “You have little time left.” She will answer very limited questions, giving only the following basic information as laconic replies to the right questions: My name is Groolool. I am an earth weird- a prophet of death and wealth.    I was brought here to avoid my use as a cheat in the casino by its customers. I once dwelt in nearby mountains.     I want for nothing, but accept tribute in wealth or death and disaster.Only after the pcs obtain another three successes (10 total) can they persuade her to prophesize. During the second part of the skill challenge, possible approaches include:    Offer Sacrifice: A sacrifice of a living creature of at least paragon level or of treasure worth at least 1,000 gp earns the pcs an automatic success. Only two successes can be earned this way.    Arcana: A creature trained in Arcana can demand compliance and prophecy, similar to using Nature. The DC is 21, but only one success can be gained with this skill in this part of the skill challenge.    Athletics: Vigorously stirring the earth in the pool (DC 24) helps the weird awaken enough to speak and prophesize.    Diplomacy: A creature can awaken the weird and persuade it to prophesize by speaking to it in Primordial and making a DC 18 Diplomacy check. Creatures can earn any number of successes this way.    Insight: A DC 16 Insight check in this part of the challenge allows a creature to realize that Groolool is simply very sleepy, and thus hard to get to speak. The creature also realizes that her deep topor can be alleviated by staring her in the eyes in an attempt to make “contact” with her. This will earn one success or eliminate a failure, but can only earn two successes and remove one failure altogether in this part of the challenge.    Intimidate: Continuing to threaten the pool (DC 28) or to remove the earth from it (DC 23) are still effective tactics, but only sufficient to gain one more success in this part of the challenge.     Nature: Using Nature to invoke the laws governing prophesy and demand that Groolool give her name (before she has spoken) and then offer up prophecy (after she has spoken) (each is a DC 16 check). Creatures can only gain one success with each of these tactics.Success: If creatures earn a total of 10 successes, they earn the skill challenge's xp and the earth weird prognosticates for them, giving the following prophecy (speaking in Primordial): “An island in the silver seaUpon which the dead enlivenedScurry and burrow in the bodyOf the master to whom they're drivenA word to end the maddened mindA word to break the perfect cogSeeking lost to all to findSwallowed in the Stygian bogOssified in sunless voidUnknown unseen unprayed profane Until the lost tool is employedUndead returned undead and baneFor ages lost the stars align A cross around a darkened moonTo allow return malign When time is right with offered boonDark zenith on the longest nightConjunction winks and then is pastWand directs the souls in flightFrom maw to isle where at lastWhere stone will stir neath sunless skyAnd dead undead undead againWith lust that all that live will dieVengeance found in spread of pain.”Failure: If at any point the pcs accumulate 3 failures in the skill challenge, Groolool will sink into a deep sleep and cannot be woken for a year and a day.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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