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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Silverglass" data-source="post: 1589512" data-attributes="member: 14071">Northman - my latter suggestion was definitely +1 LA. That can be justified by adding the "inferior" racial HD thsi allowing better adjustments while staying within the limits of +1 LA. The character still ends up as ECL+2 but as a starting "3rd level" PC has 2HD rather than 1 so can survive.Just to clarify things my +6 Str proposal uses 1 Giant HD and +1 LA so the starting fighter would have 10+8+(2*CON) as a 3rd level PC.A +2 LA race is to weak defensively when playing in the party they should be in (3rd level) because they will have 1 HD. But their offensive power will probably be about right for a 3rd level party. Which means that they crack like an eggshell against CR3 monsters but crush CR 1 monsters. This gives rise to exactly the problem DMEntropy has had in his campaign.The +6 strength for a Half-Ogre is a massive offensive advantage at low levels, you just cannot squeeze that into a ECL+1 race. So either the STR has to be reduced to get it down to ECL+1 (i.e. no racial HD and a +1 LA) or you have to work with a ECL+2 solution. Having just +2 LA creates a eggshell armed with a hammer so I thing the better solution is 1 Racial HD and +1 LA to give that ECL+2 result.The simple fact is that a Half-Ogre Fighter 1 is NOT, and can NEVER be, a 1st level PC, its a 3rd level PC and should never adventure with any less than 2nd level PC's.Lets compare our Half-Ogre Fighter 1 with a Fighter 3 (I'll go with 16 STR, 14 CON and 14 DEX as the base point buy and ignore feats).He will have +2 BAB, +8 melee/+6 damage vs the fighter's +3 BAB, +5 melee/+4 damage. He will have +3 ranged vs the fighters +5 ranged.He will have 24HP vs the fighter's 33 (assuming 7.5 for ftr level 3).He will have +1 normal AC, +2 flatfooted) but -1 touch AC (from +2 natural armour but only a +1 dex mod). Initiative is +1 vs the fighters +2.He has a +4 base Fort save but +0 base reflex and will saves (this is quite an important point in that although the Giant HD gives a +2 Fort this means it delays the gaining of Ref and Wil save bonuses by a level, which is the area in which the Half-Ogre is already most vulnerable. A Fighter 6 gets a +2 base will save whereas the Half-Ogre will be an 8th level PC before this happens.All of this means that the half-ogre is completely unsuited to adventuring with a 1st level party, but a +2 LA is already unsuited because of his massive offensive bonus so that situation hasn't changed. He could just about adventure with a 2nd level party (but would be about the toughest) and would be OK with a 3rd level party.</blockquote>

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